Investing in Authentic Leadership and Your Core Purpose

Intro: Welcome to Honestly, We’re Learning, a podcast from ClearEdge, the marketing agency that also helps marketers grow their careers.

Join Leslie Vickrey and Lesly Cardec as we explore the turning points that shape a person’s professional story, the highs, the stumbles, and everything in between. We’ll bring you candid conversations with leaders and rising talent, plus our own take on what’s changing in marketing and recruiting today. Because behind every success story is a few lessons learned the hard way. And honestly, we’re all still learning.

Lesly Cardec: Hi!

Leslie Vickrey: Hi, Lesly. Or should I call you LC?

Lesly Cardec: It’s LC now…no. We were laughing…before everyone’s like, what are you talking about? We were on a call and we just massively confused people. It’s just when they’re referencing us, I’m just gonna be LC on Zoom calls. So if you see me…I’ve got to figure out how to do that. It’s probably very simple.

Well, congratulations to Greyson. I saw on your Instagram that he has a great role on Spamalot. So what’s that about?

Leslie Vickrey: Thank you, thank you. Yes, he tried out for his first play. You know, he’s a little actor. He loves to play the piano, sing, dance, perform, anything he can do to perform. So it’s his first stage experience. I have to tell you, Lesly, it’s been interesting for sure. Mainly, I always post about this, my own life lessons and experiences that come from being with Grayson and he got a role. So they had to do a tryout. The tryout was sending in a tape, an audition tape, and he got the part as an ensemble. And when he got to the first practice, he said, “Mommy, I don’t think I have any words. What does ensemble mean?” And I remembered reading that he could actually ask and they were looking for people to be the backup cast member for different people, just in case they’re out and so forth. And I said, “Why don’t you ask about that if you want lines?” and whatever. So I kept pushing him, I guess, to do more and not accept that the ensemble piece was great. Well, I had a parent actually say something to me. I said, “Your kid has a speaking line. How did that come about?” And here I’m putting pressure on Grayson, ask for this additional part so you can get the line.

And she said, “Well, you know, not every kid made the play. It’s really an honor to get an ensemble role or any role. And my kid speaking role was like two words. It’s not even really a line.” And it hit me where another learning moment of, she was right. Like what an honor to get that ensemble role. And he kept asking me, what does it mean to be ensemble? And I had to think about it. And really talk about how it’s the glue of the play. It’s the glue of a team. So think about all the parts we play on our team and relating it to work. We all play different parts. We all stand out. One day I’m a CEO role, one day I’m in doing this, I’m doing that. We all wear different hats at different times, but together we’re the glue that makes it all work. So now I’m reflecting on that and saying, ensemble is fantastic. You’re part of the glue that holds this whole, you know, musical together and how wonderful you’re up on stage singing and dancing and you have these cues and what you’re learning and all the actors and directors you get access to to learn from. It’s fantastic to even have a part and to be such an important part of the play. So once again, it’s been a learning growing moment for me. So yes, in a commitment, he is busy every day. Monday through Thursday, it’s 5:30 to 8:30, Sundays 11 to 5.

Lesly Cardec: Oh wow!

Leslie Vickrey: It’s a real commitment for him too. And he loves it. I love watching him shine. But let me tell you, it’s always full of learning moments.

Lesly Cardec: I love that. had a coaching moment with my son too, whether it’s through sports or through school. It’s like when you don’t get the outcome that you’re looking for, whatever that is. I was him before. I used to be really shy and I can’t ask questions or ask any feedback really. And so one of the things that I coached my son on recently was if you really don’t know, why something happened, you need to ask. You need to ask and ask for that feedback because how do you know what to work on to then step into it again?

So long conversation, it’s uncomfortable, and it’s not something that a lot of people are innately familiar with. But you have to ask. One of the things you always say is, if you don’t ask, you don’t know. And the answer will always be no. And so always learning, that’s for sure.

Leslie Vickrey: Today’s guest is Ben Eubanks. And if you spend any time thinking about the future of work, HR technology, or what leadership really looks like in practice, you’ve probably felt his influence. Ben is the Chief Research Officer at Lighthouse Research and Advisory, where he leads research on how work is changing, from talent and leadership to technology shaping how organizations operate.

He’s the author of five books, including Artificial Intelligence for HR, which has become a go-to resource for leaders trying to move past the hype and actually understand how AI is impacting the HR profession. Ben is a two-time bestselling author of The Payroll Promise and Talent Scarcity. Through his virtual event, HR Summer School, he’s helped connect and inspire HR practitioners across more than a dozen countries with over 10 million minutes, that’s incredible, Ben, watched since it launched.

And as if that weren’t enough, is the host of We’re Only Human podcast and a global speaker and trusted voice in the industry. But what we really appreciate about Ben is that he brings a very human lens to big complex topics. Outside of work, Ben is a dad to five kids. Ben, I’m honored to call you a friend and a colleague. And this is not our first rodeo, having taken the virtual stage together several times now and we’re so, so glad to have you here. Welcome to the podcast.

Ben Eubanks: Pumped to be here, Leslie, looking forward to the conversation today, sharing some different things. I love the setup that y’all have for this podcast and the show. And so I’m excited to get in some things that are not normal territory for me to talk about in front of this kind of audience.

Leslie Vickrey: Fantastic, well, let’s go ahead and dive in, Ben. We talk a lot on the show about leadership as something that’s shaped over time and not something you arrive at fully formed. I can attest to that myself. And you, for example, started in the trenches as an HR practitioner and executive. So I want to start there. What’s a moment when you look back, big or small, that really shaped the way you lead today and your journey to where you got to?

Ben Eubanks: The thing for me that I think about was so impactful and so helpful to me was when someone saw what I was doing and for whatever reason, I have no idea what sparked it, but they had a belief that it could go farther, that I could go farther, that the things that I was doing were gonna have a bigger impact than I could see within my immediate perspective or field of vision. And so when I do my very first speaking event ever in 2009, it’s because someone said, hey, I think you’d be great for this. I said, I’m not ready. She said, well, you’re on the agenda, so get ready. So when those things pop up, like, I don’t know. And in the moment it was terrifying, but I was like, that was wonderful. I could love to do that again and do it better next time. And when I had people reach out to me about an opportunity for a job at some point and like, I’m not sure I’m ready for that. And like, well, you better apply. Cause I’ve been telling my boss that you’re great. Like, okay, I need to be ready for this. And so people that believed in me before I was ready was one of the things that shaped me heavily, gave me opportunities, and also that I have tried to pass on and pay forward within my own spirit influence over time where I see someone doing something like other people may not realize that let’s highlight that so everyone sees what good looks like.

Lesly Cardec: Yeah, I love that because it’s a good reminder that how important it is to have, you know, people in your corner pushing you to be your best and, you know, that doubt, that person on our shoulder that tells us that we’re not good enough or we’re not ready. And sometimes you just need that push over the ledge. So it’s a good reminder. One of the things that we love about your work, Ben, is that you’re not just studying the work, you’re actually just storytelling around it. And every career kind of has its own, I guess, you could say arc. So how has the story you tell about your work and your role in it evolved over time?

Ben Eubanks: You know what, I wanna say a couple different things. The big thing for me is the core of it hasn’t changed over time, right? The setting has changed, but trying to figure out the story narrative here, like the plot hasn’t changed. Maybe like the key thing I’m trying to accomplish has not changed through all that. When I got started, the first time I wrote a blog post, almost 20 years ago now, the very first time, it was because I thought this may help inspire somebody else. That was the thing that caused me to turn on WordPress and try to figure it all out myself and teach myself this as someone who was not a techie. And the very first time I had published it was someone else may find this valuable. And then a few years later, fast forward and I was amazed when I figured out how to on analytics and realized there were 30,000 people a month reading these things that were being inspired. And that gave me the encouragement like I have to keep this up because apparently there’s a need for this, there’s a demand for this.

And so the story for me, the key part of that story is I’ve always been striving towards, if I am inspiring someone else, I’m lifting someone else up, that is what I’m ultimately trying to accomplish. It’s not just about getting other contracts. It’s not just about getting on a stage and talking about whatever the companies found in our latest research. Those things matter. But if I don’t encourage someone or inspire someone, then I’m not achieving that true north that really pulls me forward every day.

Lesly Cardec: That’s so powerful because again, it’s more than just about you. It’s about bringing, know, rising others up around you. And so one of the things that made me think about was how that usually comes with some friction, right? It’s not this really smooth road we all wish it was, but growth, you know, tends to come with a little bump. You know, there’s some bumps in the road. And growth tends to ask something of us before it actually gives us clarity. So can you share with the audience a recent challenge that that stretched you either now or in the past and what it taught you?

Ben Eubanks: First thing that comes to mind when you ask that, there was actually a recent, we’ll call it an interaction, shall we, that I had with someone online that this person had watched me do a virtual keynote and then the next day was picking it apart on LinkedIn. And then a few months later, a piece of research came out related to the work they do and they were picking it apart on LinkedIn. Publicly just picking at these things just because. And…It’s eating me up because again, you hear my heart behind this. This is not just a thing I’m doing mechanically. This is, they’re picking apart what I believe in and care about deeply. And I learned early in my career, I can’t respond to that emotionally. So I’m like, hey, listen, I sent them a note and just said, hey, listen, just remember this is how I feed my kids. This is why I do this work. And if you have a problem, a challenge you wanna address, please reach out. I’d love to debate you about this. I’d love to have a conversation, but picking apart publicly, probably not the best way. It doesn’t even make you look very professional overall. And so that, nipped in the bud, hasn’t happened again. And to me, it’s one of the things, even the conversation we started out today, Leslie saying all the nice things, like I’m a person, right? I’m a dad, I’m a husband. I go to church, I do all these things that other people do. And people forget like sometimes that there’s a person behind all of that stuff when you start to have some sort of following or whatever else and then people put the influencer label on, which I hate, but those sorts of things, they forget that I’m a person and I care about things and I don’t want to be, none of us would want to be on receiving end of that and people forget that sometimes.

Leslie Vickrey: All right, well, kudos to you.

Lesly Cardec: Yeah, I wonder did they actually respond or there was no response when you reached out?

Ben Eubanks: There was kind of a, “Well, you know,” hem and haw, but ultimately it stopped. Like, I don’t even have to worry about what the full response was. If it stops, then it stops. That’s what matters most to me. I learned early though in my career, I addressed this a very different way, my biggest regret as a recruiter. I’ve been recruiting for this position. We’re talking to these candidates. I had one guy who had kind of gone back and forth, couldn’t make a decision. And finally I’m like point blank. I’m sitting there making spaghetti. I’ve got a toddler hanging my leg and I’m like sending messages, hey, listen, can you just let me know yes or no, are you in? And he’s like, you know, I heard about your company. I’m not sure I want to work for your company. I’ve heard your culture is not very good. And again, he’s attacking the thing that I care deeply about. This company was two years old. no one, we didn’t even have anybody quit the company yet. So no one’s there to complain about the culture. There’s no GlassDoor page, of that. And my response was, we don’t need someone like you anyway. I sent that right back to him and immediately I was like, can’t believe I did that and I apologized. I went to the next day and told my boss, like, if you hear anything, I did this. I’ve already apologized, but I learned I can’t respond emotionally to stuff like that because it’s not the right response in the moment.

Leslie Vickrey: Well you lead with such passion, Ben, and we always say if you’re not learning, you’re not growing. So it’s those learning moments and learning stances that turn us into the leader we are today, kind of going back to the first question. And I just want to say good for you for saying something. People always ask us, as we manage a lot of social media profiles, working closely with executives, and when you get comments or things that, you know, do you comment, do you nod? And when you fuel that publicly, it can really go awry, but going behind the scenes and actually trying to have a professional conversation. I give you a lot of credit for doing that. You used a see it, say it moment, and also your passion. You are so passionate about it, and clearly you lead from the intention first, not you first. So the end result of what you’re trying to get, which is one of the things I’ve always loved about partnering with you and seeing past, you you never know what’s happening in someone’s life and…you know, we all have things happening. If it’s a toddler pulling on us or, you know, business where, you know, when it’s a few years, when it’s really tough, you know, we all carry different stress at different ways and finding grace within other people and ourselves is really important. So I give you credit for not only the See Say It, but leaning into that difficult conversation. So I want to stay with that moment for a second just because not all lessons, you know, feel good while we’re learning them.

So perhaps you have a lesson that you’re actually in the middle of right now, something that potentially feels really uncomfortable, but it’s super important.

Ben Eubanks: I think this one, again, anyone that’s listening that is a leader of people, especially if you are newer to that or that’s become a recent thing. A thing for me that I’m working through right now is really trusting and delegating. One of the things that I’ve had to do intentionally over the last year, because when I see something lingering, I’m the one that just wants to jump in there, just fix it, just to get it, get it accomplished, make sure it’s taken care of. And I’ve had to slow down and just trust the people around me. But one of the ways I’ve done that, as we bring people on that do more of the research and produce some of the speaking and things like that, like I do that have a little bit of a personal stamp on it when I do those things, personal flavor to it is I’ve told them, listen, you have my permission. If I am telling you to do something that is putting my style on you, you have my permission to push back because I don’t need another me here. Okay? Like we don’t need a clone, but if it’s a process thing, it has to be done this way. If I say, listen, it’s just how it has to be done. But I’ve given them the freedom and the grace to push back whenever I’m telling them, do this thing, that if it’s a process thing, do it. If it’s a style thing, they have the chance to push back and say, is that Ben’s style or is that Lighthouse style? And then we can have a conversation about which one that actually is. But when it comes to delegating, that’s part of what I worry about, what I am concerned about as a leader is who will be done to the standard and the expectations, what people expect of us. I’ve got great people around me. We bring them on because they’re great in the first place. And I’ve been working through letting go a little bit of that and trusting the good people that we brought on.

Leslie Vickrey: Well, that is something we could hold each other accountable on because any company trying to scale or grow and we both are founder-led companies, it’s hard to let go of that control sometimes. But to your point, you really have to. I think it’s setting the standard of what expectations are and holding people accountable to that. And then also saying, because I hear it a lot too, we’ve been in business almost 20 years and I’ll get, well, that’s the ClearEdge way. That’s how we’ve been doing it.

And I’ll push back and say, actually, I hired you to bring new ideas and maybe evolve and push what we’re doing in different directions. Not to say what we were doing was wrong, just to say that could we be doing it differently, better, rethinking things. And basically, to your point, as a CEO-Founder, I’m open to those ideas and I truly mean it. And then it’s that letting go piece, right? Like saying, okay, I really need to get let go. Lesly, you can attest to this, you watch me attempt to do this on the daily and delegate and all of the things, but it’s one of the things that I believe holds leaders back when we can’t. So holding each other accountable when we can do that, I think it’s critical for all of us as leaders to do that.

Lesly Cardec: Yeah, I think the other thing I just thought about was we were just speaking with Joanie Bily and just the notion of the founder or the CEO knowing everything, right? And it’s like, you don’t, you don’t, right? And so you surround yourself with really smart people who you want different perspectives and you want them to push back. Cause like you said, Ben, you don’t want two or three of you. How are new perspectives and new thought and new thinking gonna energize what you’re doing? So I love that theme and it’s carrying itself through through all of our sessions.

So I want to move in a little bit of a different direction. You sit at the intersection of ideas and responsibility and influence. I know we talked about that word influence, but you do. You’re an influencer, whether you like it or not. And that can be energizing, but also feel heavy. And I was listening to your latest podcast episode with Dr. Carri Miller on when AI crosses the line from productivity tool to, you know, cheating and with AI being infused and everything. There’s not one day we don’t hear the word AI. It’s such an important topic when considering how it applies to our everyday lives. And so I know that in marketing and the broader industry, this is a topic that’s so top of mind. And again, we can’t go a day without referencing it. So what’s the part of your work that keeps you up at night and is it motivating? Does it worry you? What’s your thought on that?

Ben Eubanks: The thing for me that really keeps me up is mostly, it’s mostly like waking up at three in the morning with an idea and then not being able to put that away and having to go figure that one out. The thing that gets me, I actually wrote about this on LinkedIn just this week is that we talk about AI and all these technology changes, everything else there. And we talk about it like we’ve solved all the stuff where we know how humans work and let’s go on to the other stuff. Like we still have no clue, many of us, how to drive a behavior, how to communicate a thing that’s hard, how to influence someone that doesn’t want to be influenced. Those human dynamics are still so unknown and so unexplored. Every single day we learn something new about how the brain works or about how people interact in certain situations. And I was challenging the community that I reach saying, listen, you can talk all you want to about the AI stuff, but make sure you don’t forget these other skills because these matter greatly, potentially even more so in a world where we have to really balance out automation and people and the work that we’re getting accomplished. So for me, the thing that keeps me up at night or wakes me up early in the morning is there’s always a new question to ask. There’s always something new to learn, something new to discover. And as someone who does research, I love doing that. The part that I’m always trying to filter it through though, is this just a curiosity? Is this an abstract thing or is this a, if someone knew this, they would make a better decision tomorrow than they did yesterday and how do we go find that answer for them? And so that’s a big focus for me is how to get those answers and share them back with HR leaders, talent leaders, learning leaders, people who are making business decisions about their talent because I want them to be smarter at those decisions.

Leslie Vickrey: Your brain is moving at the speed of AI, Ben. can see it. It’s like so fast. And that is something I think that we can lean into, obviously, is supplementing, but that human piece of it, it can’t be replaced. And to your point, which I love, the intention of this, we’re always learning and growing as humans, as people. And that’s one of the most important things we can, we have to keep in mind and hold on to as we continue to evolve.

So I’m gonna play into that a little bit, but zoom out from work and come into the more kind of personal side. So leadership doesn’t just come from titles or roles, it comes from who we are when no one’s watching us, Ben! So what is something that you’re working on personally? Again, not professionally, I wanna hear the personal side. That really influences how you show up as a leader.

Ben Eubanks: The big thing for me is, as you just heard from that little rant that I shared, I am a solver. I want to know all the things. I want to have the data points. I want to make the decision. I want to be able to say, here’s the thing to do. And in a work context, that’s wonderful. In a family context, sometimes it’s really hard. There’s a great book that came out recently by Charles Duhigg called Supercommunicators. And he talks about how every conversation should be seen as a sort of negotiation. Know what the terms are before you enter it.

Because when my wife comes in, is talking about a tough day she had at work, she may not want me to say anything, but wow, that’s really hard. What do want for dinner? Right? That may be all she wants, but I may hear that and say, well, here’s the three things you should go do to solve that. And it’s going to make it all better. And the data back this up actually, here’s a new study that…she doesn’t want any of those things. She just wants a little bit of emotional support in that moment. And for me, one of the big things that’s shifted that for me in the last year or two that really have made me pay attention to it more, we just adopted our daughter, she’s four years old and she is autistic. My other four children are not. And so that has created a new layer on how I think about the language I use, the interactions we have, even things that seem so simple and straightforward are very different. For example, if I’m like, hey, would you draw your shapes? And she sits down and she holds the pencil like she’s holding a knife to stab someone. Like, hey, you’re not holding the pencil right. She heard me say, put it in your right hand.

And so she’ll put it in her right hand, even if she has trouble with her right hand. And so I’m like, I gotta say it a different way. Hey, you’re not holding that properly. And so those little things, my language have bubbled up to the conversation I had with others and what are the points of the conversation. So lot around the communication piece is that the part that I’m getting at there.

Lesly Cardec: I feel like the conversation with your wife and answering with what do you want for dinner might solve all issues that I have. Just a side note, that was very smart.

Leslie Vickrey: That makes me your point though, like sometimes it’s hard to see the nonverbal cues. And when we’re talking to people, and by the way, congratulations on the adoption. And I read about it, the story on LinkedIn, and we could probably do a whole episode about your journey and so many friends either attempting to foster, adopt, fosters that didn’t turn into adoption and the celebration, the heartache, all of the things that go along with that. What a blessing for your daughter to have you and your family and for you to go through that. So thank you for sharing that as well. I’m getting choked up, I know you’re a family man and your faith and what you do for the business and the community, it’s just really appreciated. And I love that you share that publicly.

The cues that we can go for, I say this a lot too with communication. It’s what do you need from me right now? And I’m working on this with my son too. So on the personal side, we have a race coming up this weekend, a ski race. And last year he didn’t place, it was his first time racing and he was so upset and just throwing, know, the, he has us watch these crash out kid videos. He was a crash out kid in that moment, just not happy.

And I had a really hard time dealing with it. I didn’t know how to communicate with him. And the verbal cues said, you know, mom, you need to be a fixer. I need you to, you know, fix this, be there for me. Tell me how great, you know, all these things. And I had to learn really sometimes the hard way, you know, do you need me just to listen? Do you need me to help you fix it? Do you need me to hug you, tell you I love you? What do you need from me? And figure out sometimes, they don’t even want you to ask that. You need to pay attention to the cues and know sometimes too, and it’s really, really tricky and hard. So communication is everything, right? If it’s at work, at home, in your personal life, it’s something to your point we’re constantly learning and growing in, and I know myself, I am too.

Ben Eubanks: Best job security for you, right? Nobody’s thinking about that just as well as leaders need to know that.

Lesly Cardec: That’s a good reminder for me too. So thank you for sharing. There’s often a gap between also how we see ourselves and how others see us. I was just having this conversation with someone on my team earlier this morning. So I’m just curious what’s helped you personally bridge that gap and just show up so authentically, which you do. I mean, you’re so authentic, especially as your platform continues to grow.

Ben Eubanks: I met someone at a conference a few months ago and we were chatting there and he said, we just paused and he said, you know what, so and so is right. I was like, I didn’t know you knew them, they’re mutual friends. What do they say? He said, you’re the exact same person you are in person as you are online. And he said, I didn’t really believe that you would be. He’s like, you’re too nice. I’m like, okay, well, I’m from the South. Maybe that’s part of that, I don’t know.

But that is what I would hope for. I don’t have enough mental bandwidth to be a different person. To have a persona, to have some sort of different alter ego when I’m not working, that’s just too much. So the same level of endless curiosity, the same level of fiery passion for certain things. It’s the same thing that I bring when my kids are like, hey, I’ve got to work on this thing for history. I’m like, my gosh, I love that. Let’s talk about that. How can I help you? What do you need?

That same level of passion and excitement and curiosity that feeds into how I share on a live stream or how I’m interacting on a podcast. It’s the same thing that I bring when I’m at home with my kids. And for the people that have this different approach, that have a separate sort of, this is who I am when I’m doing those sorts of things online. Like, I don’t know how they do it. I just don’t have the mental bandwidth to do that and keep track of when and where. So for me, it’s just be curious, be passionate and the rest of the things are gonna be what they are, but I can’t hide that about me and I wouldn’t wanna change it, ultimately.

Lesly Cardec: That’s the best compliment that the compliment that person gave you. That’s, you know, more than you could ever ask for. Yeah.

Leslie Vickrey: And guess what? It’s fantastic to be a nice person. So we need more nice in this world. I would say keep being nice, keep being you. All right. As you look ahead, Ben, what’s in your work, your leadership or your life kind of more broadly? What is something you’re actively trying to create right now?

Ben Eubanks: For me, the big thing right now for me I’m thinking about for the coming year is I’m working on the next book. I’m thinking through that. The idea for this book came to me in 2020. So I’ve been sitting on it for a while and finally had the time, after the last book came out, my wife was like, listen, can you just take a breather, take a minute, no more books for a little while. So I took about six months off and now have been this pent up energy and I’m ready to start writing this next book, which is about, it’s sort of about the personality slash work styles of people that work in the talent, the people profession and the work that best suits them.

I meet so many people who are, like, I wanna get out of this sort of career because it’s not a fit for me. And you find out that the culture around them is not a fit for them or the type of work they’re doing is not a fit, but they could shift over one step and be, instead of being a recruiting, being in learning and they’d be thrilled with that work as a trainer versus being a recruiter.

And so the next book is gonna be around how to do that. We’ll have an assessment paired with it. And I’m so pumped about that because it’s gonna help more people find more satisfaction in the work they’re doing and more joy and bring that joy, pass it on to the people they’re serving every day.

Leslie Vickrey: I love seeing the thread of your early-Ben career, recruiting, HR, all of the things continue to be a thread through everything you do today, including the book and everything you just described. It’s what makes you an expert in this space. So thank you for sharing that. And I can’t wait to see the third book.

Lesly Cardec: Me too. What’s the timing?

Ben Eubanks: My goodness, stop pressuring me now.

Lesly Cardec: The pressure is on you when you put that out!

Ben Eubanks: I am early on in the manuscript, so that one’s still got some time to go, but my expectation is it’s gonna come out in 2026.

Lesly Cardec: Awesome. Well, good. Well, good. We’ll keep an eye out for it for sure. So before we wrap, we want to let people know where to find you, how to connect with you, what’s the best place for them to follow your work and all the things that you do.

Ben Eubanks: So a couple different places, thebeneubanks.com will give you access to social links and books and some of the other sorts of things. Some of other work that I do, a little more of the background and bio. LHRA.io is for Lighthouse where I spend majority of my days working, uncovering those things I talked about earlier, the future of work trends, all those sorts of things. So you can always reach out to me as well on LinkedIn if you want to follow me or keep up with some of the things we’re sharing, whether it’s a personal story about what I’m learning as a dad of five or some of the new things that are happening when it comes to AI in the workplace, little bit of everything can be found there.

Lesly Cardec: Amazing. Well, thank you, Ben. This has been so fun. I appreciate it. know, we all appreciate your time and we’ve learned so much. That’s the best thing about hosting this podcast is, you know, we’re learning, which is the title and appreciate you educating us and helping us feel grounded in the work that we do and giving back to others. So we really appreciate it.

Leslie Vickrey: Thank you, Ben.

We just finished our second podcast. Congratulations…with Ben Eubanks. And I think we’re going to recap our top three takeaways. Is that right?

Lesly Cardec: There was so much in that episode too, and it’s just the second one. So it’s just, it’s so exciting. I mean, for me, when I think about what stood out, one of them was just, it’s actually a theme that came up with Joanie, it was the notion of delegation and how even at the top as a founder or the CEO, you just, don’t know everything and nor should you know everything. And so the importance of just delegating and having a really strong team to surround yourself with and the notion of why do you want multiple people that are just like you? Because then it’s lack of diversity and perspective and thought. So really just trusting in your team and just knowing that everyone brings something so special to the table and it’s okay to let go, which is so hard, but it’s an important lesson.

Leslie Vickrey: It is, especially as people who tend to like to control things, we have to be able to delegate and trust the team and really mean it and show them that we mean it. You you can set the foundation and the stage of what your expectations are and accountability, but you also need to give some leeway and room for people. Because we’re all learning and growing, right? It’s the intention of this podcast. So I love that. And you’re right, it seems to be a common theme. Another common theme that I picked up on, I’m curious, your thoughts on this is really around the confidence piece. Not that Ben does not have confidence, it’s more around in his case, what we see in ourselves isn’t always the same as what others see in us. So kind of being that influencer that he is, you know, starting out in HR and recruiting and then kind of growing his way up into really respected researcher, public speaker.

And that not always being where, you know, maybe he saw himself, but growing into that. I know you and I feel similarly on that. And he made a comment about someone saying, you know, wow, I met you and you’re exactly who you are in person as I see online. And I love that. I’m going to throw a but in here, but someone that same person I think said, but you’re you’re too nice. And I always hear that and think of, you know, myself in leadership and, I know people mean well when they’re giving compliments, but sometimes, you know, why is that a bad thing to be a nice leader? It comes across as like, well, that’s a negative, you should change that. And you know, people have told me, I get emotional, I got emotional on the podcast. You know, you shouldn’t cry, you shouldn’t, you know, be this or that. And, you know, at the end of the day I’m gonna be, this is who I am as a leader. People are either attracted to that and wanna stay at the company and work with it and work with us as clients or not. So I love that Ben is really nice and he truly is super nice.

Lesly Cardec: I feel like that’s a superpower. I don’t know. just, feel, you know, it’s, you’re human, right? And it’s just, it’s hard. Like how do you, how do you put up those walls and just, you know, and not be that way in all facets of your life? The other thing that stood out was about communication cues and just how everyone’s different in the ways that make sense to be communicated to, just the non-verbal cues, Gosh, that is so telling in itself. I mean, just being aware that people need to be communicated differently and what they need may change from time to time and just being cognizant of that.

Leslie Vickrey: Yeah, and sometimes asking and sometimes we’ve got to try and figure it out the best we can and know in each situation. And every person’s different, right, in what they like, let alone in those moments of what they need. In communication, Ben mentioned, you know, difficult conversations too. So making what could be a difficult conversation comfortable. He talked about the example on LinkedIn with someone kind of posting negative things and he went offline and, you know, tried to have a conversation with that person in that kind of see it, say it moment and, you know, not letting, letting kind of his emotions sit for a minute and then reacting and having that conversation. So also thinking about how do I make what could traditionally be seen as a difficult conversation or uncomfortable conversation comfortable? And sometimes it’s taking down those barriers by, you know, just being really open and honest and, you know, yourself, that human side, like you said.

Lesly Cardec: That was a good reminder. I love that you brought that up because it’s a good reminder because mean, ruminators we’re ruminators and you sit there for two weeks stewing on something that, you know, you’re probably exaggerating or taking it out of context or, you know, could have been resolved with just reaching out directly and talking through it. So that’s all good lessons.

Leslie Vickrey: Ruminating…we’re working on it. I sent someone a text message, someone I really looked up to and they didn’t respond for weeks and then just responded. But can I tell you, those weeks I kept thinking, did they respond and I didn’t see it? I’m going to go back and check and see. And no, and what I should have done is just reached out. And it’s a really good reminder. Yeah. Always learning on these.

Lesly Cardec: I know! That’s why I love this podcast. Yeah, it’s a good reminder that we’re all a work in progress. Well, that’s a wrap on our second episode. Thank you all for joining and we’ll see you next time.

Outro: Thanks for listening to Honestly, We’re Learning. If you liked what you heard, you can drop us a like, review, or comment. And if you want to hear more, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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