Building Communities and Claiming Your Value Through Resilience

Intro: Welcome to Honestly We’re Learning, a podcast from ClearEdge, the marketing agency that also helps marketers grow their careers.

Join Leslie Vickrey and Lesly Cardec as we explore the turning points that shape a person’s professional story, the highs, the stumbles, and everything in between. We’ll bring you candid conversations with leaders and rising talent, plus our own take on what’s changing in marketing and recruiting today. Because behind every success story is a few lessons learned the hard way. And honestly, we’re all still learning.

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Lesly Cardec

Hello.

Leslie Vickrey

Hello. Welcome back.

Lesly Cardec

My gosh. It’s been a wild couple of weeks. I know it’s gearing up for everyone’s end of the year. and those with kids, it’s been, it’s been wild. I know you can relate to that.

Leslie Vickrey

Today is day one of summer. So that means our camps, all the things starting. We’re excited. We have a rising fifth grader. So the oldest in the, in the class, which is remember that being really, really fun.

Lesly Cardec

That is fun. And then you get to start from the bottom after.

Leslie Vickrey

Right exactly. You just keep starting over.

Lesly Cardec

Oh my gosh. I just got back from SeaWorld. And that’s so random. But both my son and my daughter’s end of the year trip for fifth grade was SeaWorld. And if you’re not familiar with it, it’s in Orlando and lots of fun rides and it felt like it was a hundred and twenty five degrees outside, dead air, no wind. and I was a chaperone, which is not my thing for those who know me. I’m not, the, you know, the PTA person or not a big chaperone person, but this is what I did with my son. So I was gonna do it again.

And I was in charge of four lives that day. they all came back in one piece. They all had a great time, but it was so interesting to see the different dynamics of four preteen girls. And I actually had a really good time sitting back and observing the different personalities that they all have.

But the the other interesting thing is, it’s just and, it kind of reminds me, my daughter also went through a week of of camp and she struggled the first day, came home and was like, it it’s outside all day. And if you’re from South Florida, you know that’s tough to be outside all day long. And so the same feeling hit me when she came back from day one of camp as like wanting to rescue her, like wanting to shield her from whatever pain or discomfort she’s feeling.

But in both cases, I resisted. And it just was I kept in my head going, like, if I keep her home from camp, what is that gonna teach her? That the moment that something gets hard or she doesn’t love something on the first day that she can quit. And I kept saying, like, she’s gotta get through it. And of course I was trying to motivate her and talk her through it.

And honestly, by day four, I asked her, do you want to go back next year? And she’s like, not today, but maybe next year. And I was like, okay. So progress. But it really took a lot of strength for me not to say, you know what? It’s okay. Call it a loss. Stay home, you know, in the comfort of the AC and do what you want. But you know, not to relate everything to work or business, but it does remind me of just

You know, resilience and pushing through and, you know, it and even when you’re overheated and your feet trust me, I was too. I wanted to call it quits too. Overheated and your feet are hurting and how much you just want to quit. Right. But feeling so good on the other side of that. She was really proud of herself for for making it through it. And I know you feel the same way. I know Grayson has some camps coming up and different things that you enroll him with. And it’s like a mama bear in you wants to just protect and you know, ensure their happiness a hundred percent all the time, but you just can’t do that.

Leslie Vickrey

Right, right. Well, and teaching them to sit in those uncomfortable moments. And that it’s important for them to experience those to find, you know, the greater side what’s on the other side of that fear or that nervousness or whatever, whatever that may be, for sure. Yeah, Grayson had his first sleepaway camp recently and he was nervous about it Lesly from before school started when he first met his teacher.

He did not want to do it. He was not excited. And in our heads we kept thinking, well, it just go. By the time you come back, we know you’re going to, you know, love it. We just assumed that he would. But one of the things we learned is not all kids do. You know, he he did not like it, but part of it is he ended up getting strep throat and had strep throat the entire telling me that so yeah, he’s sick the whole time. He’s away.

My gosh, we didn’t know it. God, I would have probably driven the two hours to go get him. But he, you know, talk about having to sit in your uncomfortableness. You’re, you know, not feeling well. You don’t want to be there. You want to be at home. but you know, all of these things just help make them stronger for for what’s next. So I’m I’m hoping with our mountain biking summer camps coming up that he’s building that resilience.

Lesly Cardec

I used to go to away for a month for sleep away camp and it was it was tough. Well, no, I mean honestly, I I don’t know that I could do that. Like, I you know, I I give a lot of credit and I think it’s really powerful. A lot of growth happens. I think it’s all good. It’s all really great that that the kids experience that. But I remember it being hard on my mom more than more than anything. But yeah, it’s so important to push through that. It’s a good lesson for me to like restrain myself. Like don’t go in and rescue.

Leslie Vickrey

We’re fixers. We’re fixers by trade. We want our kids to be happy. And Grayson’s sometimes the first to remind me that it’s okay to feel multiple feels and feelings and that he doesn’t always have to be like me with the glass, you know, overflowing and definitely full and happy and full of energy. It’s okay to be sad or angry or not excited about something and, you know, to sit in that.

But when they get to that point where we want to fix them and that fixer mode in us turns on, that’s when that’s like a cue almost where we need to have them sit in that uncomfortable feeling. You and I have that at work. We’re constantly writing each other, reaching out to each other, tell me what did you think about this? And how do we need to fix that? And those are all our cues that sometimes we have to sit in those uncomfortable moments to…

Lesly Cardec

That’s a good point. We have held conversations quite a bit.

Leslie Vickrey

Yeah. Exactly. All right. Well, we’ll keep learning from our our kiddos. I’m glad you chaperoned. I have yet to chaperone, so you’re giving me a little encouragement to go do so.

Lesly Cardec

Yeah. Awesome.

Leslie Vickrey

Today I’m excited to welcome someone I’ve known and admired for many years, Lamees Abourahma. Lamees is the CEO and Executive Director of the Recruitment Process Outsourcing Association, or RPOA, the Global Trade Association dedicated to advancing RPO as a strategic talent solution around the world. I have had the privilege of serving on RPOA’s board of advisors, so I’ve seen Lamees’s leadership up close.

She is a true builder. She’s strategic, thoughtful, and deeply committed to creating platforms that bring people together and move an industry forward. One of the initiatives I especially admire is RPOA’s Women in Talent Acquisition Celebration, which for the past five years honors women making meaningful contributions to their teams, companies, and communities. That matters to me because I believe so deeply in the power of visibility, recognition and community for women.

And Lamees hasn’t just talked about that work. She has helped build it into the fabric of RPOA. Under her leadership, RPOA has continued to expand its reach through education, research, webinars, community building, and the launch of their own podcast, Time to Hire. And she has helped elevate the conversation around RPO while also creating more space for the people shaping the future of talent acquisition.

And then there’s a background you might not expect. Degrees in mathematics and computer science and NBA, a Dale Carnegie Award winner, a Toastmasters Award winner, bilingual in English and Arabic. She describes herself as a lifelong learner. And honestly, after what I have just shared, you can tell the evidence is hard to argue with. And these days when Lamees is not leading an association, she’s picking up a paintbrush or working on her golf game.

Lamees, I invite you to Breckenridge to golf with me anytime or when we’re together. I would love that. Or learning Spanish because apparently, Lamees, you cannot sit still. So welcome to Honestly, We’re Learning. And I know that’s something you and I share that we both love to be really active and I just love any opportunity we have to have a conversation together. So thank you for joining us.

Lamees Abourahma

What a heart warming introduction, Leslie. Thank you so much.

Leslie Vickrey

Well deserved.

Lesly Cardec

We always like to start off on these episodes looking at the person behind the title and the bio. And so really digging into the real story about the person. So you came into the talent industry from kind of a marketing tech entrepreneurship type of background and really building something from scratch. And somewhere along the way, you found yourself really at the center of an entire industry’s evolution.

And a lot of the times we know that people define themselves by their careers and what we do. It’s so hard not to do that. But how do you define yourself based on everything that you’ve gone through, your journey? How would you describe it?

Lamees Abourahma

Yeah. And thank you for the opportunity and sharing what beyond the cover page, I guess, of what we all share publicly. You mentioned, Lesly, mathematics, you mentioned technology consulting, I’ve done all of that, I’ve been an entrepreneur, I’ve done all sort of things and that it publicly probably is on my LinkedIn profile.

But last year I had the opportunity through my Toastmasters Club to compete actually in a speech contest. And it gave me the opportunity to think of a topic to present and I it made me reflect on who I am as a person. So I’ll share with you some of my findings, which after like 50 years now I get to discover who I am as a person. Back in college, I got myself involved in the math.

Society initially as a vice president and then as a president. The club existed based on like three, four people who just constitute that society. And then we decided we can do something more. And that’s me and the the group of math nerds, if if you will. We love doing math all the time.

So basically, we promoted the membership by offering an hour of math tutoring. You can do that for five dollars an hour, or you can join the society for the whole year for $15 and get unlimited math tutoring. And that actually build the membership for the society. And because we had more members, we had more support from from the school. And that wasn’t something I thought much about.

But I found myself throughout my life moving to start a small family and South Carolina, working from home. We needed to start a local MOps club. And I offered to start that club, not thinking much about the work involved. Earlier in my technology career, I was my business was a business partner for other software companies, including HubSpot, back in 2009, very early in their evolution before they went public, they were starting local groups.

And here in Richmond, Virginia, I actually started their local group. And later on I heard it was one of the their most successful launches for these local chapters or groups. And then most recently I’ve been very actively involved with my Toastmasters district.

I was serving on the club leadership as well as the district leadership, always just thinking of ways to help. It’s never been about me and what that means for me. It’s always been about like there’s an opportunity to help and build this community. So as I reflected on all these things I’ve done really organically, I was under the impression that everybody does that. I realized this is more of a community leadership and thinking about where I landed with the association, that’s it explains my passion for what I’m doing with the RPO association and the really the community that we’re building.

Lesly Cardec

Yeah, it really does. I keep on thinking of the word activator. You’re an activate a lot of people talk about doing things, but it’s the others who actually implement it. So we talk about that a lot too, just in the realm of of the industry of the execution is where most people fall flat. And that’s kind of seems like where you, where you excel.

Leslie Vickrey

As you were talking and sharing that, obviously you were destined to run the RPOA or a community or an association. You’ve done it for so many years and creating different communities and groups. So that that really struck me when you when you were talking about that, this is it’s like you were a natural born leader to lead a community and you’ve landed at a at a fantastic place where you’ve made such a big difference. And

When I think of you running a trade association means you’re never just leading that one organization. You talked about this. You’re leading a community. You’re influencing people who didn’t hire you per se, who have their own priorities and who you really need to kind of bring along with the industry as it continues to shift. And that really requires a very particular kind of communication and influence.

And I’d imagine it’s kind of like different at different points of your journey and knowing the RPO industry just as an example, you and I have spent, you know, a lot of years in in RPO and we’ve seen a lot of changes over that time. And you often need to influence people when they’re, you know, making a decision, do they join the community? What role would they have in the community? And so forth. So maybe you can share with us a little bit how is your approach to communicating or influencing others has really had to shift as you’ve grown as a leader?

Lamees Abourahma

One of my spiritual mentors is Martha Stewart. She doesn’t know that, but she is one of my inspirations. And I love the woman. She’s in her eighties and she’s still rocking it and she’s always learning. That’s her thing, like learning something every day. And that is also my, my theme. I can’t imagine not being actively learning something all the time.

And that that’s that had to be also my approach for communicating because I found myself in this position with the association and the execution part just like, Lesly, said is kind of my sweet spot the being the public face that had I needed to grow into that role and and that was not an easy thing for me to do.

I can think back when I first start joined the association in 2011. We started the webinar program and that was before webinars were on video. That was just like audio. It was still quite intimidating for me. I wasn’t speaking, I was hosting, that was still it was scary for me to be doing that. I stuttered when I first started that like my mouth was dry. I stuttered. That was like do you just hear it, you feel it, when someone is not comfortable speaking. And I had to work on that.

That was a a long journey. Along the journey, I did find luckily Toastmasters while I was working on my MBA more than 10 years ago. I heard about Toastmasters and it’s been six years for me with Toastmasters and definitely it helped me a lot. I needed to work on my public speaking because we started our conference five years now and it’s a smaller event. It it wasn’t viable to have to pay for someone to MC the event or it’s not something that you can ask volunteer to do.

So I found myself every time i also with the podcast initially our plan was to have a an influencer host the podcast for us and that also wasn’t viable. So I ended up hosting the podcast and having to grow into that role. it’s still a journey for me working on my public speaking. I would say it’s a product or a project in in progress.

It’ll probably never be a finished product but it’s one of these things where I’m always gonna be learning and working on my communications skills because my role I’m evolving my role for the RPOA to be more of a storyteller as well.

Leslie Vickrey

Hmm. I love that. And when I think of your comment, you mentioned always having someone else kind of take that lead. And sometimes in our roles, we have to realize that we need to take that lead. And it’s something Lesly and I actually talk about a lot where our backgrounds were in communications and PR. We always wrote speeches or did things for CEOs or other executives, not for ourselves.

So even me stepping into the role of CEO of ClearEdge and being used to helping other people be in that spotlight, I also had to get used to that. Our head of operations, Jess Elliott, just joined she’s doing an improv class. And I love that. It kind of reminds me of Toastmasters too. It’s that constant learning. And I get anxious thinking about doing improv, but maybe that means I need to push myself to do something like that so I can just continue to learn and grow and evolve on that front.

Lamees Abourahma

Actually, gonna challenge you on that, Leslie, because I did that probably two years ago. So there are people who challenge themselves and jump off planes. I challenge myself and I took an improv class, and that’s the kind of challenge that I would take. I did that two years ago and I ended up loving it. It’s it’s a different skill set than Toastmasters because you’re thinking on your feet and it’s a it’s an it’s a fascinating skill to have and I am getting back to improv. I’m doing summer school with a twelve week improv class.

Leslie Vickrey

Fantastic. Well, I will take the challenge and if there is offered in Breckenridge, I will look into it. Look into it. We’ll see.

Lamees Abourahma

I’ll, I’ll check in with you on that. Or or you can check off a plane, so that’s which one do you choose?

Lesly Cardec

No, that’s how I bet you if you were to survey a lot of people, they might choose the plane. I don’t know. Maybe they would choose the plane. That would be easier for them.

Well, Lamees, thank you for sharing that. I want to pivot a little bit into kind of the industry and where it’s going. You sit really at the center of quite a dynamic conversation happening in talent acquisition right now. There’s so much happening. AI. Workforce strategy, the power, the buyer-provider relationship and the power dynamics between that, what organizations actually need versus what they think they need. Everything is constantly in a state of shifting.

So I wanted to ask, as a leader that, you know, is obviously helping to shape the industry, what is the narrative that you’re trying to move forward?

Lamees Abourahma

This year we launched a task force that looks on the impact of AI on RPO as a business. so looking at what that means in terms of delivery, in terms of a business model, in terms of cost, pricing, offering. It’s, AI is a disruptor, but it’s also an accelerator and a catalyst to the next evolution of talent acquisition in general and RPO in particular.

So we’re embracing at the RPOA, we are embracing that that evolution, and we are leading with insights through the work of the task force as well as with the AI literacy where we’re building platforms and programming to support our members with AI literacies, which as both of you know, there is tons of AI education out there. What we’re doing specifically for our community is providing that insight specifically for RPOs.

Lesly Cardec

Fantastic. Is that something that you’re gonna be rolling out externally or is that more of an internal thing?

Lamees Abourahma

We started rolling that out. So it is on on the website, it it’s always happening. That’s actually I probably I’ll I’ll announce this on the podcast since we just put out the portal for AI and the future of RPO. So it’ll be pieces that we are launching and releasing as we have the conversations internally through the workforce on different pieces of that puzzle, if you will, and we’re we’re releasing those and then later in the year we’ll have more publication and at the conference we’ll have also more findings shared with the primarily the membership but also publicly because we see again the the RPO association’s role as leading the industry, not just the membership.

Lesly Cardec

Fantastic. I can’t wait to, yeah, I’ll have to take a look at it too, because it’s something that we could share internally to help educate our teams as we interact with with our clients. So fantastic.

Leslie Vickrey

You’re always doing a great job, Lamees, of identifying what needs to happen and quickly addressing it for the community and the association. And I I know the members of the association probably see that and appreciate that, but just for letting the broader industry at large know it’s definitely one of the main, I think, core benefits is you’re keeping an eye on that. So you’re not just kind of observing the narrative that goes around you.

You’re making sure that you and the group you know, actively shape it to support them in your research and community and, you know, that power to convene people together to make that change.

Lesly Cardec

Lamees, let’s transition a little bit to a little bit more of a personal note. When you think about something you’re working on personally and not just professionally, what is something that influences you personally versus professionally and how you show up?

Lamees Abourahma

Leslie shared something in the opening that I’ll pick up and I’d like to elaborate on more. Something that I’m passionate about and I’ve been passionate about for a long time is mentoring and specifically mentoring the youth, the the the the next generation of leaders, if you will. I was actively involved in mentoring throughout my life and most recently with my Toastmasters Club, I started their mentoring program.

I I love in general mentoring young adults and the next generation of leaders. women in particular, if I’m able to help them and and guide them, I’m also passionate about that. And Leslie mentioned the women in talent acquisition.

It’s something that as an as a association we’ve been passionate about doing and it’s always a celebration for us when we work on it because sadly still the I feel the one of our biggest challenges as women is the narrative that we tell ourselves. We settle for less than men do. and I see that with my children, the young adults I have a daughter and son and my daughter just entered the workforce and it was interesting to have this conversation with her where she is telling her friends, her friend that asking for a $3 increase in her salary was a big thing and she should be asking for less.

And I’m thinking, my son would be asking for a five-dollar increase when they’re thinking like three dollars is a lot, and unfortunately, that’s just I think women are wired this way.

And I find myself starting this conversation with my daughter about how women are compensated less and how that starts and how we need to change that. And she probably I don’t know if she heard me or not, but that’s the message that we need to get out there. One of the biggest advice or best advice that I had advice from you is know yourself or know your worth.

And I find myself in my association world and a lot of time, either whether it’s for me or for the association, pausing and thinking about that and and making decisions differently because now I’m thinking, yeah, like we deserve more. I deserve more, association deserves more. and it’s not it’s not what men tell themselves.

Leslie Vickrey

No. Well, how fortunate your daughter and her friends to have you as a mentor to even just listen and give them that feedback and advice. It starts with them, that next generation, to be asking and knowing, you know, knowing their worth. So I’m happy to hear. Thank you for sharing that.

That that feedback and advice stuck with you and it is a gift that we need to give that next generation to feel that inside themselves to know their their own worth as well. and Leslie can attest to candidates even on the recruiting side of our business and how the negotiation pattern of men and women and we have to constantly mentor, you know, in some cases both sides, but a lot of times the women to know their worth and to to make the ask. If you don’t ask, you won’t get yes. So we have to ask.

Lamees, this has flown by and we would love to continue the conversation and I bet others would too. Where can they connect with you or follow along for your work?

Lamees Abourahma

Publicly, I’m active on LinkedIn. So definitely LinkedIn is a good place and the RPOA, the place to go for RPO is also where you can find me.

Leslie Vickrey

Yeah, I can’t say enough good things about the association, the event that you host. And to continue again staying on that forefront. You’re always looking at not only what’s ahead, but what’s around the corner, which is really critical. And I’ve known and witnessed it firsthand again as a past advisory board member, the value that you’re giving the the industry as a whole.

So I think just reflecting on this conversation, Lamees, what stands out is really the thread that runs through everything you’ve built and you find communities worth investing in and you give them everything to help them grow. You’ve done that for the RPO industry for over a decade. You’ve elevated the profession, created resources that didn’t exist. You built a space where leaders can actually think together. And again, that’s something I’ve witnessed firsthand with executives and peers coming together.

Thank you just so much for sharing, not just where the industry is headed, but how you’ve navigated the journey to get there, how you continue to invest in yourself and that you’re a lifelong learner, always learning. That’s exactly what this podcast is about. So Lamees, we’re so grateful that you were here. Thank you.

Lesly Cardec

Thank you. Thank you for everything you pour into the industry. We’re all better because of it. So we appreciate it so much.

Lamees Abourahma

That’s amazing. My heart is full. Thank you so much both for the opportunity.

Lesly Cardec

All right. Another episode with Lamees. That was so great to have her on. lots of good nuggets to walk away with. Leslie, what rose to the top for you?

Leslie Vickrey

Well, we kicked off this whole episode talking about resilience and needing to sometimes push ourselves and sit in those uncomfortable moments. And I thought it was ironic we did not know that or plan that when Lamees was talking about that herself, where she really had to push herself by joining Toastmasters International for public speaking. And even if you think about it, it can be leading meetings.

She hosts one of the largest, you know, conferences or most well-known conferences for the RPO space with the RPOA conference. So getting up in front of the groups or hosting the workshops. So I give her a lot of credit for doing something like Toastmasters to make herself feel comfortable. And the challenge of the improv class, which should be interesting. I I will check.

And see if we have anything like that here that does make me nervous. I’m super proud of Jess, our head of operations, who is doing that herself. But again, it’s that kind of find that resilience, push yourself, go into those uncomfortable moments and use those as opportunities to strengthen your own success in what you’re doing. I thought was super relevant and timely considering.

Lesly Cardec

I was thinking too, Leslie, that there has to be maybe we can look into a virtual one. Not the same as in person, but might be fun to do as an exercise for our team improv. I I just I think it would be a fun, fun exercise.

Leslie Vickrey

Yeah, I think Second City offers that for teams. Do they team building? Yeah. So we’ll have to look into that. All right.

Lesly Cardec

Right. Yeah. Her comments made me think of the public facing person that she has had to be. She mentioned a few different examples where she was gonna have an influencer do something and it didn’t happen. So then it’s like, gosh, that is me. Now I had to do that. And I know I can relate to that. I’m sure you can too, just based on our backgrounds of so many times. and Leslie, you’ve done a great job of this of, you know, saying, We should do this and I’m like, Yeah, good job And you’re like, What about you? And I’m like, Wait a…

Leslie Vickrey

Like the podcasts we’re doing right now.

Lesly Cardec

What am I doing here hosting this? I’m not sure. But yeah, you so much time and effort in our careers had been spent of making other people look good, to be honest. Right. And loving that in that in a in a positive way, like loving to make other people look good. And then it’s like, okay, now I have to do it myself. So it’s scary. And I don’t know that feeling will ever a hundred percent go away. But you you do get more comfortable over time, just like this podcast. I remember the first one we did, I was like, ugh.

Leslie Vickrey

Yeah, I helped you break the ice on the first one by being possible location to to record. So we could agree about anything. That was all on me.

Lesly Cardec

Anyone who’s not following, go back to the first episode.

Leslie Vickrey

All right. So I love that. The public face in person. Okay, that’s our second take. Did you have a third? What was…?

Lesly Cardec

Teah. She shared a short story about her children and relating to just advocating for yourself and knowing your worth. And I love that topic. It’s something we talk about all the time. It’s something I try to advise and coach people with all the time on the recruiting side of things when I wear that hat of just, you know, if you don’t ask, the answer is always no.

And when I’m working with folks on the recruiting side and trying to place them into organizations, there’s a lot of differences in how comfortable people feel and asking for what they want. A lot of people it’s it’s it’s an uncomfortable topic, right? When you talk about compensation, it’s not something that is is natural for everyone. And so it’s it’s about putting in the reps and just doing your research and knowing what you bring to the table and advocating for yourself because, I don’t know, there’s it’s not there’s nothing worse than not trying and knowing that, you know, you were you could, you know, achieve something that you’ve had your eye on because again, you didn’t speak up.

So easier said than done, but it’s such an important topic. And I know something Leslie, you advocate for and mentor a lot of a lot of students on as well.

Leslie Vickrey

And I what a blessing for her daughter to have someone like Lamees be able to give her that feedback at such a young age where perhaps for us we didn’t necessarily get that mentoring or coaching until later. It’s good to have that or if even if we did sometimes that fear of if I ask for that, I won’t get the job, or if I ask for that a promotion.

So we let the second side of that story that we’re telling ourselves get in the way of actually making the ask. Where now we’re trying to encourage and empower people. No, make the ask. Your peers are making the ask. You should be making that ask too. And to really know, know your worth. And that, that’s at all levels. It’s entry level.

It’s also executives where we see a lot of executives try to negotiate and they’ll take things like, well, if I need that flexibility, then I’ll take less compensation.

No, your worth is what you’re bringing to the table. Everyone’s getting flexibility to some certain degree. They can take it. And oftentimes at that level, you don’t necessarily need to ask, you just do. Yeah. And a lot of people don’t realize that. So know your worth listeners at all levels and make sure to pass it on to the next generation.

So they can carry that forward with them early early in their career.

Lesly Cardec

Yeah, I agree. And just the importance of just connecting with peers. No one talks about it. So the more that you have conversation and understand where your peer group sits and it just it just helps quite a bit. sometimes you don’t realize it until you have those conversations. So that that that certainly helps. But all in all, great conversation. Lamees was a joy to speak with and I hope you all enjoy the episode just as much as we did.

Leslie Vickrey

All right, until next time.

Lesly Cardec

Okay, take care.

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