Why Great Leaders Don’t Need To Have All the Answers

Intro: Welcome to Honestly We’re Learning, a podcast from ClearEdge, the marketing agency that also helps marketers grow their careers.

Join Leslie Vickrey and Lesly Cardec as we explore the turning points that shape a person’s professional story, the highs, the stumbles, and everything in between. We’ll bring you candid conversations with leaders and rising talent, plus our own take on what’s changing in marketing and recruiting today. Because behind every success story is a few lessons learned the hard way. And honestly, we’re all still learning.

---

Leslie Vickrey: Welcome to this episode of Honestly, We’re Learning. Lesly, we’re mixing it up a little bit here! Over the last few episodes we recorded we noticed some trends and we thought it would be really interesting to pull clips from those episodes, specifically around trust and delegation.

Lesly Cardec: Yeah, it’s interesting that in the time, the timeframe that we’ve launched this show, we keep seeing these consistent themes with these fantastic leaders and we thought you all would want to see kind of a recap of it so we hope you enjoy!

Leslie Vickrey: Let’s roll!

Lesly Cardec: I’d love for you to share one lesson you’re learning right now that feels uncomfortable but really important.

Joanie Bily: No, I can think of one that comes top of mind. I mean, I can go back to and probably give you a hundred of them. Right now, I’ve made the transition from kind of the corporate world where I had a great track record and now I am leading a global nonprofit.

Nonprofit is very different. I think I’m bringing a lot of good skills with me and experience that can help really build this nonprofit and help evolve it to the next level. But the culture is different and running a nonprofit is different. You know, the financial statements, right, are different. So it’s been a learning process for me.

Number one, I didn’t really go out and seek that I was going to be a CEO of a nonprofit. And this incredible opportunity came up for me to step in as the interim. And then I fell in love with it and fell in love with, you know, the organization and the mission and most of all the opportunity of where it can go. But it’s still learning. It’s a whole new world for me. And so I make mistakes. I ask a lot of questions. I know I have a lot to learn.

And so it’s not so much that I’m struggling with imposter syndrome, but I do check myself that, hey, I need to rely on some experts and I have some learning to do in this new role because it is a new environment. I didn’t do this the last 30 years of my career.

Leslie Vickrey: That is true. And going from corporate to nonprofit, it is very different, but I really applaud you for seeing the opportunity and pushing and challenging yourself. We talk about this a lot, but hearing it firsthand from someone like you, Joanie, is really inspiring. And what we talk about is making, you know, if you’re not feeling uncomfortable, maybe you’re not pushing yourself hard enough.

So it’s a good reminder that we need to keep pushing ourselves and people often think, well gosh, you’re at the CEO level, you know it all, and we don’t know it all. If we’re not learning, we’re not growing. And I know you and I are a lot alike in that regard where we want to constantly be learning and growing and pushing ourselves, even if it’s uncomfortable. We’re fortunate to have great friends and networks to lean on in those times and cheerleaders cheering you on. And I know you’ve got a wonderful, wonderful group doing just that. So I appreciate your honesty. Thank you. Thank you, Joanie, for that.

Joanie Bily: Absolutely. Thank you. And you know what the great thing I’ve realized, Leslie, now being a CEO, is that you really don’t have to have all the answers. It’s so great to really try to pull the answers out of other people. And that is one of the things that I am loving most about this role and this opportunity.

Leslie Vickrey: And it gives other people an opportunity to grow too, push themselves when you’re challenging them to make some of those decisions and do those things. So it’s funny how much being a CEO or a leader, you can relate to different things in life. We talked about your children earlier and we’re natural-born like problem solvers, fixers, and we want to fix and help and do all of the things. So kind of pulling back on that can be really challenging for us. I know that, Joanie, but it’s important, whether at home or at work, in the things we do for volunteering to do that.

Ben Eubanks: Anyone that’s listening that is a leader of people, especially if you are newer to that or let’s become a recent thing. A thing for me that I’m working through right now is really trusting and delegating. One of the things that I’ve had to do intentionally over the last year, because when I see something lingering, I’m the one that just wants to jump in there, just fix it, just to get it accomplished, make sure it’s taken care of. And I’ve had to slow down and just trust the people around me.

But one of the ways I’ve done that, as we bring people on that do more of the research and produce some of the speaking and things like that, like I do that have a little bit of a personal stamp on it when I do those things, personal flavor to it, is I’ve told them, listen, you have my permission. If I am telling you to do something that is putting my style on you, you have my permission to push back because I don’t need another me here. Okay? Like we don’t need a clone, but if it’s a process thing, it has to be done this way. If I say, listen, it’s just how it has to be done.

But I’ve given them the freedom and the grace to push back whenever I’m telling them, do this thing, that if it’s a process thing, do it. If it’s a style thing, they have the chance to push back and say, is that Ben’s style or is that, that Lighthouse style? And then we can have a conversation about which one that actually is. But when it comes to delegating, that’s part of what I worry about, what I am concerned about as a leader is who will be done to the standard and the expectations, what people expect of us.

And I’ve got great people around me. We bring them on because they’re great in the first place. And I’ve been working through letting go a little bit of that and trusting the good people that we brought on.

Leslie Vickrey: Well, that is something we could hold each other accountable on because, you know, any company trying to scale or grow and we both are founder-led, you know, companies, it’s hard to let go of that control sometimes, but you, to your point, you really have to, I think it’s setting the standard of what expectations are and holding people accountable to that. And then also saying, because I hear it a lot too, we’ve been in business almost 20 years and I’ll get, well, that’s the ClearEdge way. That’s how we’ve been doing it. And I’ll push back and say, actually, I hired you to bring new ideas and maybe evolve and push what we’re doing in different directions. Not to say what we were doing was wrong, just to say that could we be doing it differently, better, rethinking things.

And basically to your point as a CEO/founder, I’m open to those ideas and I truly mean it. And then it’s that letting go piece, right? Like saying, okay, I really need to get let go. Lesly, you can attest to this. You watch me attempt to do this on the daily and delegate and all of the things, but it’s one of the things that I believe holds leaders back when we can’t. So holding each other accountable when we can do that. I think it’s critical for all of us as leaders to do that.

Lesly Cardec: Yeah, I think the other thing I just thought about was we were just speaking with Joanie Bily and just the notion of the founder or the CEO knowing everything, right? And it’s like, you don’t, you don’t, right? And so you surround yourself with really smart people who you want different perspectives and you want them to push back. Cause like you said, Ben, you don’t want two or three of you. How are new perspectives and new thought and new thinking gonna energize what you’re doing?

So I love that theme and it’s carrying itself through through all of our sessions.

Leslie Vickrey: When you look back, what’s a moment, or small, that really shaped the way you lead today? And I want to just do a quick personal plug-in, the sense of getting to know you and watching you as a leader and watching you with your team and watching how you work with partners as well. And always looking for sharing feedback and receiving feedback, you’re always in like a learning stance and growth mindset.

And I’ve really appreciated that and getting to know you. So again, when you think back at that moment, big or small, how did you come that way? You always bring something to conversations as a leader. And I’d love to hear how that was shaped.

Jon Grosso: I wish I could say I was born that way. These are these are things I’ve been working on. And there is a moment. And I hope everyone has one of these types of moments where you’re doing your job, you are a junior professional, you’re coming up the ranks, you’re putting your blood, sweat and tears into it. And someone notices that. I’m not sitting in the corporate office. I’m not in the number one branch in my company at the time. I’m in a successful office. I am successful, but someone noticed. And there was an opportunity at the corporate office to present the quarterly business review for one of our top 10 customers. And my boss’s boss came to me and offered me the material to deliver that QBR to the president of the company. I couldn’t believe it. I’m a young professional, my mid-20s, and as you can imagine, I was super nervous, but the coaching I got was a little bit along the lines of what you just mentioned.

It was about having a growth mindset where we’re asking you to do this for a reason. And it’s not necessarily just about presenting internally. It’s about learning. It’s about learning how to present to the C-suite the types of questions they asked. You know, how do you work through that room? You know, how do you take that back for yourself, for your team? And if I wasn’t noticed in that moment, if I wasn’t given that opportunity, I’m pretty sure I’m not talking to you today. So it was, it was just a meeting, but it was a big moment for me.

And a lot of really great learnings have come from that that I’ve been able to pull the thread throughout my 25-year career.

Leslie Vickrey: Right. It’s fascinating to me where sometimes we don’t realize those what may feel like a little moment to a leader giving someone that opportunity is actually a life-changing, game-changing opportunity for that person.

Lesly Cardec: When you think back on where you started as that intern, what’s something that you believed early on that maybe you see completely differently now?

Mike Smith: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the first thing that I’d say is, I’m sure most young leaders experience this, and that’s that false dichotomy that you have to have all the answers, as opposed to being an enabler or facilitator of the right outcomes for your organization.

I think it takes a little while for people to say, I feel really comfortable in my own skin and that comes out, I think, in vulnerability-based trust. Some things that I would say now that I probably would never have said 10 or 15 years ago is, think you’re better at this than I am. Can I have your opinion? Can you help me on this? I thought about what I said last week on this topic and I was wrong and I want to apologize. I think we were discussing this point. We were having a passionate unfiltered debate. I think I crossed the line into a personal component of that and I’d like to pick up the argument of the right decision for the organization, as well as saying things like, I’ve listened to everyone’s point of view on this and my decision is what we’re going to do is X and I need you to get on board with that.

That’s probably the biggest different differentiator measuring your success on building something that prospers beyond your presence, as opposed to being the single point of success within the organization. And I think that’s a tough transition for leaders to make. You don’t make that overnight. You make it over time.

Lesly Cardec: I think we’re hearing certain themes a few times with guests. And one of the, it’s really about, it’s okay not to have all the answers and just being really transparent and honest and hiring really great people too to lean on and letting them, you know, pushing them forward and letting them lead is something that I’m hearing consistently because from the outside end, many people think, you know, all the answers, right? And it’s not always the case.

But I also love your point about you have to move forward and you have to make a decision that hearing everyone out, being respectful about it, but also saying this is what it is and I hope you’re on board type of message. So I think that’s as powerful.

Mike Smith: I think it’s a delicate balance. you need to be able to, like if you just turn up to every meeting and say, don’t know the answer, what do you guys think? And then you don’t come with some sort of bias for action. I think that can be equally frustrating and paralyzing for teams. So at some point you need to make a decision based on the synthesis of the information that you have.

But how you get to that decision should come from mining for conflict in your team, asking for data, challenging, asking the edge question in the room, et cetera, and not just defaulting to, this is the best way. I think I should do it, and I’m not interested in your opinion. Because most of the time, people won’t get on board with the next steps with the same amount of energy if they haven’t been part of that process.

Leslie Vickrey: In thinking of your kind of internal customers, quote unquote, in your team, and I know as well when thinking about getting curious about different things, this is something I’m really just excited to hear your answer about and hear you dig a little deeper on because as any company, ours included, starts to scale culture and that deep connection is so important. You’ve been all over the past couple of months on social.

I love following you and the journey, but you going on a road show and literally deeply connecting with your teams and really being there and they see you in person and you have fun with them and you’re out enjoying time together. And I recently read through your Utah Business Magazine CEO of the Year article, which had a quote that said that of everything you’ve worked on, the thing you’re most proud of isn’t a metric or milestone, it’s the strong values-based culture you’ve built at CHG.

So I wanna start there because that can be tricky to maintain, especially as companies are selling or they’re private equity backed, or when you think of customers, like whoever that customer may be, things can go awry on that front, but it’s something you have really focused and honed in a lot on and as part of why you’re so successful. So what does that take to protect and scale a values-driven culture, especially at times of change, growth, and transformation?

Leslie Snavely: It’s a great question. And probably it’s the thing I literally think about by the day of the week. Because now to your point, we’re much bigger. I started 16 years ago. I was one of about 1,000 people and now we have over 4,000 people, right? So you think about how you build a culture, train, sustain, nurture at 1,000 and 4,000 can be very, very different just given the scale. one of the things I would tell you, it’s almost counterintuitive is to always be listening.

And that can be overwhelming, right, depending on the scale of your company. But what I try to do every year, every quarter is sit down with various groups, whether it’s my road show, which I just did in person about six weeks ago in our company, or in talking to folks about what’s going well, what’s not going well? If you could just keep one thing, what would it be? If you could change one thing, what would it be? What feedback do you have for me?

So sitting down live and in person and having that discussion, but then also doing it programmatically throughout the year. And so that listening as a headline, the ability to truly be present when you’re with someone, then also to take your time to listen. So I do, as an example, I do a road show every year, early in the year, in January. And I do listening groups throughout the year for our employees. Come and chat with Leslie, right? And it’s literally a Zoom session where people can just sign up and ask me the questions they wanna ask me.

I do that with leaders eight times a year, with employees 10 times a year. Go on the road one time a year, walk the halls every single week, call people, talk to them, ask what’s going right and what’s going wrong. But it’s doing all the things with this intention to truly listen.

By the way, listening doesn’t mean you agree. Listening doesn’t mean you’re gonna change your approach, but listening means literally listening with an inquisitive mindset. And I think at the core of building and sustaining a culture is doing that. And then finding the things you are gonna action and then saying, hey, I heard you, here’s our plan. That return loop communication is just so important to keep the culture really what I’ll call true, right?

Because you can say you want a culture to be something, but if you don’t go out, listen to what it is, do the things it takes to change if needed, or just to reinforce where you are, it doesn’t sustain, right?

So, and candidly, these are hard things. I probably dedicate, I would say 20% of my time to some form of listening or communicating. And that is like a a lot of time, you think about how much time you have as a CEO, 20% of my time to listening or communicating, and that’s with small groups, big groups, leaders, individual contributors, salespeople, business partner, administrative coordinating, technologists, and salespeople, right? And all over the company, because everyone really has something valuable to add to our culture. And I think that type of fling, that type of listening is what makes it sustain.

Leslie Vickrey: One thing I would say to that is the internal communication expert in me, that’s where I got my start in marketing. My heart is singing so happy for this to hear you say this right now, because we always say, even when you feel like you’re communicating, you need to communicate more. And the thing that it shows is one, a lot of companies don’t do that. So that is a differentiator for you. So I hope others listening take it truly to heart when you think of the fact that you care, you show you care, that you’re listening and then you’re also kind of communicating that out and making change based on, again, not everything, but the things that are core and important, that matters.

When you think of going and scaling from 1,000 to 4,000, the retention you need, the referrals you need, the good reviews you need online, it all starts a lot of times at the top in how you act and how you perform and the curiosity that you bring to your role.

And again, common themes for you, Leslie, that I love are the curiosity and always be learning. And that ties directly into that listening and taking action.

Leslie Snavely: And what’s interesting, and I’ll add something just about this, think, it is also not just the good stuff. So you have to be able to communicate and listen on things that are hard, because that’s what builds trust with people, right? I’m willing to take a hard question.

I’m willing to say we did something wrong. And I think that is the foundation of once you listen and learn and shape that, you then, you just gotta be real. And I think, as you think about long-term scaling that ability to be real and be authentic in the way you do it is what makes it, you as a leader, able to sustain it, right? If you’re always kind of in perfect mode, you cannot sustain it. It’s not real and thus it doesn’t sustain the culture.

Leslie Vickrey: Right, trust and transparency. We talk about that alot, Lesly, LC, the other Lesly, knows very well. We’re big on internal communication and really big on leading with trust and transparency. And to me, that’s the only way you can lead, but it’s kind of surprising sometimes how many companies don’t take that kind of, that much time and investment in doing so.

Lesly Cardec: Well, that’s a wrap on our special episode featuring some of our leaders talking about recurring themes. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. We’ll continue to do special episodes like that as we move forward and we really hope you enjoyed it! Coming up next actually is another special episode featuring both Leslie and I where we flip the script and interview each other so can’t wait to hear what you think. Thanks for joining!

Leslie Vickrey: Thank you!

---

Outro: Thanks for listening to Honestly, We’re Learning. If you liked what you heard, you can drop us a like, review, or comment. And if you want to hear more, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.