Unlearning the Rules of Leadership and Building a Better Culture

Intro: Welcome to Honestly We’re Learning, a podcast from ClearEdge, the marketing agency that also helps marketers grow their careers.

Join Leslie Vickrey and Lesly Cardec as we explore the turning points that shape a person’s professional story, the highs, the stumbles, and everything in between. We’ll bring you candid conversations with leaders and rising talent, plus our own take on what’s changing in marketing and recruiting today. Because behind every success story is a few lessons learned the hard way. And honestly, we’re all still learning.

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Leslie Vickrey: Welcome back to Honestly, We’re Learning! I’m Leslie Vickrey.

Lesly Cardec: And I’m Lesly Cardec and today we have a really special episode. It’s really flipping the mics on ourselves, meaning we thought it would be fun for our listeners to learn more about us. So we’re ready to jump in, right, Leslie?

Leslie Vickrey: Let’s go, I’m ready.

Lesly Cardec: One of the questions I think we should probably incorporate moving forward is, what’s your walk-up song? I know I think of it a lot and hear about it a lot in sports, but I think maybe everyone should have a walk-up song. So if you had one that plays every time you enter a room or step on a stage, what would it be?

Leslie Vickrey: My gosh, I love this question. And for me, there’s only been one time that I can remember where I actually had a walk-up song and it was my wedding. So I kept thinking about, we got married, as you know, Lesly, on Halloween, we had a black tie masquerade ball. And I just remember like walking in to, I Got a Feeling by Black Eyed Peas, that tonight’s gonna be a good night.

And every time I hear that song, it just gets me energized and reminded me of that moment of us walking in, locked arm in arm, these big masks on, and our wedding party behind us, and pictures of us being lifted up and jumping. And it was just so much fun. So I think for me, because of that memory, that will be my forever walk-up song.

Lesly Cardec: That’s awesome. First of all, it’s so cool that you got married on Halloween. You’ll never forget the date, so that’s a plus. So Halloween, and then I also know Grayson and your son loves Halloween, so maybe you sort of contributed to that by getting married on that date.

Leslie Vickrey: I think it’s in his DNA. He doesn’t have a choice but to love him apparently. It’s funny though, Lesly, when we picked the date, people said, well, what if you have kids, then your wedding anniversary will always be on a day that’s meant for the kid and not yourselves. And actually, we never thought of it that way. We thought how much fun would it be to be able to celebrate if we did have kids in that way? And sure enough, every year we’re out trick or treating, and then we host a big party.

You know, I love it. Doesn’t matter the day of the week, we’re celebrating Halloween and our anniversary. So it’s a ton of fun.

Lesly Cardec: Love it. I knew this was coming and I was struggling with what my song was and I kept on going back to Whitney Houston. I love Whitney Houston.

Leslie Vickrey: Oh, yeah.

Lesly Cardec: Was always a fan growing up, had shirts, had her CDs, used to play it in my car. So, I mean, maybe the classic I want to dance with somebody would be it. It’s just such a fun, loving, karaoke-like hit that anytime it plays, I can be in the middle of the grocery store and I’m like, start singing. So, yeah.

Leslie Vickrey: I love that. That brings back good memories for me too. I love that song. Good pick. Yeah. All right. My first question for you, Lesly, is what’s something we’ve learned from each other that changed how we’ve both worked?

Lesly Cardec: That is such a good question. I would say you’ve taught me a lot about connecting with others in a really authentic way and genuine way. You are just the queen of connection. And so it’s watching how you interact with others and not just watching, would say even just communicating in general, whether it’s through Slack or email or whatever mechanism, genuinely leading with with value and curiosity.

It’s almost like, you know, this is a gush fest. We talked about this potentially.

So we apologize for anyone watching, but it’s almost like watching, like having a front row seat to someone, how to become a better connector and really build connections with others. I don’t know how else to say it, but that’s something that I continuously learn from. It’s not like it stopped, but over time I’m like, I’m always like Leslie, include me.

Add me to this, even like just, I just want to learn and grow as much as possible by watching you.

Leslie Vickrey: Thank you for that. I love that. Well, one of the things I love about working with you, Lesly, and that I’ve learned from you actually, and you know, I really have struggled with radical candor and I’m a ruinous empathy, typically leader, and I’ve had to lean into that and we’ll talk a little bit more about that. I think later in the conversation, but learning from you, the ability to have those conversations and to know that it always comes from the heart.

So oftentimes, I think we’re a good yin and yang in that sense of being able to kind of role play and bounce things off of each other. And you always jump in and say, I’ve got this. And you just go do it. And you don’t perseverate over it. At least I don’t see you doing that. And you go and you have those conversations and really bring that to a leadership style that I have personally struggled with.

I love watching you just jump in and say, I’ve got this, this is great. And I keep thinking, I need to do that more. I need to be confident and remember, you know, I’ve got this. It’s a conversation that may be, you know, difficult. How do I take that out of it? And people know, and I always say this about you too, when we’re conversations, people know it’s coming from the heart because that’s the only way we know how to deliver messages. And that’s the only way we know how to be as leaders. So thank you for giving me the courage to be a stronger leader when it comes to communicating with each other and continuing to be open, honest, transparent, all of those things.

Lesly Cardec: It’s a work in progress, right? It comes with, it comes with reps, lots of reps and experience. And like you said, it’s coming from a good place, but not always, not always easy, but it is something that I think about too, because I’m thinking about on the flip side, being on the opposite end of hearing any sort of radical candor or feedback. It’s always better to know and coming from the source versus ruminating.

Leslie Vickrey: Yeah. OK. The next question, Lesly, I actually have for you. And that is, what’s something you believed earlier in your career and maybe believed fiercely that you’ve had to completely let go?

Lesly Cardec: This is such a good question and so getting a little personal and honest, something that I’ve had to completely unlearn is that you can’t mix personal with business. And I held onto that one for a long time. I think the latest I’ve seen is that we spend at least, if not more, 30% of our waking hours at work. And those are people who get eight hours of sleep a night. And I don’t know about you, but I know that we don’t get that amount of sleep every night. So it’s probably north of that.

But I grew up in, and I’m not saying all of them, so if anyone’s watching that used to work with me, don’t think I’m talking about you, I’ve grown up in some cultures and I’ve seen cultures from other people that I’m close with that, you know, applaud late nights, that first in, last out sort of mentality, and worked with folks that you never knew that they had children or took care of their parents or what was going on behind the scenes.

I just reflect back on my career and having little ones. They’re older now, but I remember when they were sick, which something always happened. If you’re a parent, know something always happens and it’s that call that you get, you’re like, gosh. But it’s like that mental calculation. What do I tell them at work? How do I say this without looking uncommitted?

I mean, I even struggled with taking maternity leave, which sounds terrible, but it was a mental challenge for me to genuinely worry about would they find me valuable when I got back. And that’s terrible because my focus should have been on taking care of my little one. That time is so sacred. But when you get on the other side of that and you find great cultures and great people that actually encourage folks to bring their own, you know, their whole selves to work.

You realize, and I guess this can apply to every facet of your life, is you are what you know. So everything that you’ve lived as a mom, as a caregiver, or as just a person, that stays with you. And it shows up in how you lead and how you listen and how you connect with the people. Once you know that, once you come on the other side of that, you can’t unknow it. So you almost awaken to the fact that you can bring both sides of who you are to your work.

So that would be it for me and, you know, live and learn. Lessons every single day.

Leslie Vickrey: Well, I know we’ve talked about this before. I can definitely relate to that. And when I think about when I started ClearEdge 20 years ago now, a lot of the why behind our culture was to create something different from what we both kind of grew up in, which definitely was who’s first in, who’s last out, very competitive, always being on. And I think there was this misnomer that that meant you were successful or productive.

And at the end of the day, alot of times people were so unproductive, I would think to myself, they should just go home. Why are they here just talking to people? They have families at home and could be doing these things. This doesn’t make any sense as to why you’re just here to be here and not add that value.

And one of the earlier questions you had posed was around something we’ve learned from each other. And one of the things I love about working with you is that we are so open with each other and share pretty much everything. And you said it yourself, you…literally everything, you spend so much time together with the people you work with and there’s just so much more of a genuine connection. And one of our values is inspire loyalty and part of that loyalty and inspiring it is because we know each other and we’re there for each other in the times when we need it the most. And oftentimes that’s personally when we have to go do something and you know, I think about even ailing or, you our parents who are aging and different things happening.

That happened to the leaders we worked with. They just never talked about it.

And, you know, for us, it’s the reality of our lives and situations, whether that be kids who have challenges or issues or different things they’re doing or opportunities. You mentioned when you started with us, I’ll never forget it. You had said I had never been to, I think it was a school play or something for…

Lesly Cardec: Yeah, I volunteering at my daughter’s. It was like the first time ever that I’ve done that.

Leslie Vickrey: I was like, what? How is that possible? And it’s, I think what we grew up in, but today I’m really proud of the fact that we’re able to create something unique and different. Interestingly, when people leave our company and they only know our company and go somewhere else, it’s interesting to see that they may then be facing some of the things that we faced and they don’t realize that that even existed until they’re in it. And, you know, that’s part of it too, is we really do have something special within that culture, but it takes the leaders to create that and be that way with each other. I’ve had to do a lot of undoing, Leslie. People were like, you’re like a new person when I started ClearEdge. Because I used to micromanage and all of the things too. And I didn’t like being that way, but that’s what I learned and how I was taught. So now I can be the leader that I’m meant to be.

Lesly Cardec: It’s true. It’s hard. still, I still have remnants of that too, and just being a leader as well, and just trying to unlearn those certain habits.

Leslie Vickrey: Hey, you know what? And that’s something you can teach people on our team because I see that often. I know you do too when they come and they have to undo a lot of that when they come here because there’s a trust factor that they don’t trust because they came from cultures that weren’t built in that trust and transparency. Whereas we really are this way. Really, you can trust me. And I really mean it. You can. I’m not just saying that. Yeah.

A gift you can give to our team is also tips on undoing.

Lesly Cardec: That’s true. Okay, so one of the questions I had for you, Leslie, was, you know, I know we’re getting pretty vulnerable, so let’s continue down that path, right? And let the whole world know. Talking about a ClearEdge moment, something that was hard, that tested you, tested how you lead, what would you say?

Leslie Vickrey: Gosh, I would say top of mind for me, and you we just published our new book, Rising with Courage, and my whole chapter really is about probably the toughest time for me during ClearEdge. And you know, we went from a, I didn’t realize it at the time, but a lifestyle business where we really did lean into the flexibility. When we started to think more about growing and scaling and that growth mindset and, you know, adding more layers to the team and adding new divisions and really modifying that.

What I realized quickly is that what I thought people really wanted when we talked about growth was different than what they actually really wanted. And you were here during this time, we went through a lot of turnover.

And I think the hardest part for me was people who I had worked with a really, really long time, who we no longer worked together, but not only didn’t work together, we didn’t even speak anymore. So there are kids who I saw grow up or, you know, different life changes, like we talked about, we know each other personally, very personally. And that was really hard for me. At the end of the day, the learning I had, however, that whole radical candor piece where for years I would create positions to keep people, you know, I’d say things like right person, wrong role. Well, what is the right role?

And then create positions for people where I was making it more about helping that person than maybe the team or the company. And that sends a really wrong message to the team too, that perhaps you can’t make the tough or difficult decisions as a leader, that perhaps that person is a great person, they’re just not a right fit for what we need, you know, right now as a business.

And realizing that by having those conversations and Kelly Boykin, who I know is a great friend and mentor of yours too, was one of the best leaders for me to learn from when it came to, I would talk to people who she managed and they were like, you know, she actually had let me go, but we’re still really close and good friends. Or, you know, she had to make some changes and we’re still, you know, really close. And she was able to have those difficult conversations and have it come from the heart, like we were talking about earlier. So learning how to do that and be a stronger leader to make sure I was making the right decisions and realizing that they’re better off somewhere else. This isn’t the right place for them either. And maybe we’re holding them back from thriving in a position that is the right role for them or a different company or part-time, whatever that may be.

Don’t try to move mountains, so to speak, to make it work when it wasn’t meant to work. And those were really, really hard lessons for me. They’ve made me a stronger leader for sure. We have a phenomenal team. People stood by me during those changes and really believed in the vision. And it took finding people who believed in that for the greater good of the team and the company and all of us to be there. But it did not come without losing some friends, which was really, really hard.

Lesly Cardec: Yeah. Well, thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing that. I know you cover that in your new book as well, I think your other chapter as well, right?

Leslie Vickrey: Yeah, Rising with Courage is the new book. And my original chapter was really around just finding confidence in imposter syndrome and becoming a leader who I wanted to be and kind of growing out of that founder imposter syndrome feeling that I had. And this chapter was really around being the leader that you need to be in that chapter of your company and that that changes and grows and evolves over time.

For me, I listen, our podcast is called, Honestly, We’re Learning. I’m honestly learning all the time and try to surround myself with leaders I admire and can learn and grow from and those who say the same with me too.

You all needed to see me make those decisions. I know you were here during those times. You needed to believe in me as your leader and the more I could lead with that trust and transparency, the better it was for everyone. And we’ve led through hard times since then.

It hasn’t been the best market over the past few years when we launched the new divisions and we were looking at investing and growth in the company and changing sales models and doing all of these things at a time when all of a sudden the market kind of went from underneath us and changed.

You know, look at now leading through AI as a marketing agency and thinking about, you know, what’s the future of a marketing agency and what role does AI play when you lead with strategy? You know, leaning into that, we’re constantly learning and growing as we build this company. And I think that’s really important is that we don’t know everything. However, we surround ourselves with really great people, great team members. And when we do need to make those difficult decisions, we do. And when I need to make those difficult decisions, I do.

And that’s something that I’ve really had to lean into as a leader, for sure.

Lesly Cardec: Yeah. And I think part of your, I mean, going back to one of the things we talked about yesterday that we were reflecting on is what does honestly, we’re learning mean to us, which was like the next thing we wanted.

And for me, I think you hit the nail on the head. It means being vulnerable, you know, not having all the answers, being confident in that you don’t have all the answers, which is very hard to step into. And then, you know, as you heard in other episodes is the misconception that we have it all figured out.

And I think you can confidently say after listening to a lot of our leaders that it’s quite the opposite. We’re all learning and growing and really that should never stop. I think once you stop, that’s when you have a problem. So that’s what it means to me and I know you probably echo those same statements.

Leslie Vickrey: Yeah, I love that you beautifully transitioned into the next question. To keep us moving on otherwise.

Lesly Cardec: I know this has been so fun. I feel like we could probably keep going, but we have to wrap up at some point. So Leslie, I guess for the final question, what are you carrying with you for the rest of the year? Anything work related or not.

Leslie Vickrey: Well, you know, I started the year with my not doing list and making sure that I was really focusing on things that were, you know, not doing the things that were keeping me from doing the things I should be doing. And I wrote a post yesterday about we did our leadership offsite and our business coach had asked each of us separately. We didn’t know he was even asking us this question, but what are three words that stand out to you right now as being most important. And we talked about focus and we talked about being focused on execution.

And when I think about the words that matter most to me and what I’m bringing into that next phase, I guess, of this year, we have to stay focused and make sure we don’t, I’m that squirrel leader like, look at that or look at this and I do it, I know I’m doing it too. And you all being, you know, like telling me to stay, you know, within that lane because I have to make sure that I’m staying really focused and focused on, you know, execution quite frankly, because I think that’s one of the main areas that people fall short on.

And I know I have fallen short on at times as well is that making sure that I can execute on things too. Come to find out, we all did strength finders and I thought that was one of my strengths, it’s not. But discipline and focus, discipline, execution are kind of the three things that I’m bringing with me in everything I do.

And I think about that not only in business, but in my personal life as well. How can I stay focused with things that are true to me and discipline, you know how hard it is to fit in a workout or go for that hike or do those different things, but I’m really disciplined about it and try to do it as much as I can and the execution piece. So that’s me.

Lesly Cardec: I know. It was pretty amazing that we all kind of said that we did say the same thing. The other thing too was this, the Strength Finders exercise was really interesting because now coming back from that offsite, our leadership team is like, well, now we’re talking to each other and we’re like, yep, that makes sense. Now we’re seeing the dynamics.

Leslie Vickrey: Yeah. Exactly.

Lesly Cardec: Well, thanks everyone for joining. You know, we started this podcast because we truly believed the messy middle deserved a seat at the table. So today we try to live that for you all and, you know, get inside our heads a little bit.

And if you’re in yours right now, we see you. And we have a lot of exciting guests coming to join us on the podcast. A few names, Jennie Dede, Head of Sales, Search and Staffing at LinkedIn, Ursula Williams, President at Staffing Industry Analyst, Nicola Hancock, Chief Growth Officer at AMS, Myla Ramos, CEO at SearchPros, Kye Mitchell, President of Experis US, and Kellen Smith, CEO at 8020.

I mean, that is quite a lineup. So thank you for joining us and we’ll see you next time.

Leslie Vickrey: Thank you!

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