Owning Feedback, Leading with Conviction, and Cultivating Purposeful Growth

Intro: Welcome to Honestly We’re Learning, a podcast from ClearEdge, the marketing agency that also helps marketers grow their careers.

Join Leslie Vickrey and Lesly Cardec as we explore the turning points that shape a person’s professional story, the highs, the stumbles, and everything in between. We’ll bring you candid conversations with leaders and rising talent, plus our own take on what’s changing in marketing and recruiting today. Because behind every success story is a few lessons learned the hard way. And honestly, we’re all still learning.

---

Lesly Vickrey:
Hi Lesly. Welcome to the latest podcast!

Lesly Cardec:
Welcome, welcome. Yeah, we have Michelle Sims coming on. I’m excited.

Leslie Vickrey:
Love Michelle Sims. Love, love. Can’t wait. I always take something away from her.

Lesly Cardec:
Yeah, me too. I know we always start with a little conversation and I thought the audience could hear, hear from us about a topic that we hear from a lot when we talk to other leaders is the whole balance between being in the business or working on the business. And it’s something we all talk about so much, and, and when we have these light bulb moments, we’re always like, PAUSE! You know, we need to create a list of times when we’re like, if we can talk about that.

And this is one of those topics. I know we talk about it a lot, as, you know, founder led company and and sales and all what that looks like. And for me recently, I have for the most part, not in all aspects of my role, have been in a more strategic role in some respects.

And others not, but lately I’ve been getting a really had the opportunity to jump in and dive into just the inner workings of accounts. And it’s where I started here, six, six and a half years ago or so. And it’s been super interesting and problem solving with the team and trying to understand our processes and decision making at the ground level. So it’s been a really good opportunity for me to, you know, go back to where I started and all of the things that we’re working on at a different level is just solidified now and you know, refamiliarizing myself with just how things run has been really great.

And I know a lot of leaders do that as well. You jump in and out at certain times and it ebbs and flows. And I think it makes me a better leader for it. And I probably would assume you think the same.

Leslie Vickrey:
A hundred percent. It’s frustrating sometimes because we want to be working, you know, on the business and move it forward. But I find it actually helps in kind of interesting doses to be able to come in and really see the inner workings of what’s happening to your point. And I have to imagine, you know, the account teams roll into you, they report into you.

It makes you more empathetic. They see that, gosh, she’s rolling up her sleeves. So that’s fantastic. I need to keep doing that too. That, you know, no one’s ever so strategic that they can’t get into the weeds just to see what’s happening and how things are done. And I personally think for you, you know, when onboarding, training, managing, leading, coming back in after so long on the account management side and seeing what it’s like is actually gonna be a really a great gift for for the team and the company and the clients.

So but yeah, it’s one of those things that we forget. You know, we want to focus so much on strategy. And then when we come in, it’s wow, that changed a lot. Which it has with so many different things. Our structure…

Lesly Cardec:
It has. It has. Yeah. And it’s also been nice to see our team, I mean, we know we have fantastic talent and we hear about it, but to see it live is another thing. So I’ve sat on quite a few calls. What day is it today? I don’t even know. But over the last week or so, I’ve sat on so many different calls and have seen our team rise to the occasion, handle challenging moments and just seeing them live in action and again, it’s it’s gonna make us all better, myself a better leader and looking forward to continuing to do that while also kind of balancing that. And that’s the key.

How do you balance the strategic with the with the hands on and continue to make forward momentum? And I don’t have the answer. If anyone’s like, how do you do that? I don’t have the answer. But we’re all we’re all trying to figure it out. And yeah, doing the best we can.

Leslie Vickrey:
Yeah, trying to strike that balance. But yeah, I I agree. So we’ll have to get some input on working in the business and on the business.

Lesly Cardec:
I know. That could be a good question though to ask some of our some of our leaders as well. Let’s jump into Michelle.

Leslie Vickrey:
Today we’re excited to welcome Michelle Sims, CEO of YUPRO Placement, a subsidiary of the nonprofit YearUp United, and one of the leading voices in Skills First Hiring. Michelle stepped into the CEO role in March of 2020, just days before the world shutdown. And she has spent the years since building YUPRO Placement into a mission-driven firm focused on advancing talent who have historically been overlooked by traditional hiring practices.

Her work really sits at the intersection of workforce development, forward thinking, employers, and career-ready professionals coming up through alternative training pathways. Michelle, you’ve been named so many times to SIA’s Global Power 150 Women in Staffing, five consecutive years. She’s a regular contributor to both Forbes and SIA Staffing Stream, where she pushes for practical policy and business strategies that expand across an access to opportunity.

I have had the absolute privilege of speaking with Michelle before, including a really powerful conversation on TheEdge podcast that has stuck with me for years. We talked about persistence, confidence, and what it means to be your own number one fan. So if you hear me quote that often, it’s probably because of Michelle. I also had the honor, huge honor of interviewing Michelle on the main stage of a keynote at ASA Staffing World where her clarity, conviction, and passion for this work were impossible to miss.

One of the things I’ve always admired about Michelle is that she doesn’t separate leadership from lived experience. She brings the full story. Her journey through staffing, her perspective as a woman CEO, her commitment to advancing women and women of color into the C-suite, and her belief that opportunity has to be intentionally built, not simply hoped for. But Michelle, before I turn it over to you, I have to say you gave me one of my favorite phrases from our past conversation. And I do quote it often.

When people don’t see a path forward, they will speak with their feet.

It has stuck with me because it’s so true and because, Michelle, your work, it’s all about making sure more people do see a path forward. We’re so happy to have you with us today. Welcome to the show.

Michelle Sims:
Thank you. That’s I don’t know how many questions you could ask me that could beat that introduction. So thank you.

Lesly Cardec:
We’re so excited to have you. We always, we’ve been trying to kick this off with a little bit of fun first. Not that the whole episode won’t be fun, but looking back, if you could look back at your 22 year old self, right, and give yourself one piece of advice, and it can’t be about work, what would that be?

Michelle Sims:
So much is wrapped up in work. Golly. So if I was 22, I would probably tell myself that, don’t wait until you’re 55 to let other people’s stuff go that wasn’t for you to carry to begin with. No one asked you permission for it, no one gave it to you. And I think you all have seen this, but I feel so strongly about it that I went and got my tattoo that says…

Lesly Cardec:
I was hoping you were gonna show that. I didn’t wanna ask, but…

Leslie Vickrey:
But that’s usually over dinner with some wine, right?

Michelle Sims:
Here we are. And it says, “Let them.” And it’s taken a lifetime to get there. Right? Because, you know, carrying other people’s stuff that you weren’t meant to carry anyway, man, it causes some serious disappointment and you set yourself up for some serious disappointment. And controlling everything, fixing everything, it also predicts zero outcomes. And so yeah, I think I would try to tell myself that much younger.

Lesly Cardec:
I have read an that book and listened to podcasts about it and everything. It’s so powerful. I love that you have it on your arm so when you look at it all the time when you’re…

Michelle Sims:
It happens a lot.

Lesly Cardec:
Yeah, I’m sure. It’s like you’re programmed a certain way your whole life that you kinda have to retrain yourself how to think. So thank you for sharing.

Michelle Sims:
Of course, of course.

Leslie Vickrey:
I love that. We we often let other people’s lack of confidence in their own imposter syndrome get in the way and have us it impacts our own confidence in imposter syndrome. So letting them and letting go of that and letting them hold on to that. I love that advice. Thank you for sharing that.

Michelle, you’ve spent years teaching and mentoring students and we talked about this a little bit on our first podcast together in the Houston Community College system, while also building your corporate career. And since then, again, we talked about March 2020 in your introduction. You stepped into the CEO seed at YUPRO Placement right as the world shut down, which is about as clean a break from business as usual as it gets. So tell us a little bit about a moment, big or small, that shaped the way you lead today.

Michelle Sims:
You know what’s funny about taking on an organization ten days before the world shut down? That first year was a complete blur. Being a new CEO, having stepped into that role for the first time. But I will say something that has stuck with me before I took a CEO role that I actually have shared with a lot of our like some of the students that we actually mentor and do classes for. And I’ve shared with them how to take feedback. And I share my story of a pivotal moment and how I got feedback from something that I did.

I was a VP and I was incredibly convicted, as I still am, but I wrote an email to a client where that conviction came across probably too strong.

And that email that I sent to a client, the client chose to send that to my boss, the CEO, and their corporate HR department. And I remember getting the call from my CEO and saying, you know, I got this email. And it was probably the most humiliating call of my career.

Because I was right and he told me I was right, but that wasn’t how this was going to go down. I was getting written up and he had to make an example because it was our largest client, corporate largest client. And the most pivotal moment in my career and most humiliating was that for the next month, I had to send him my emails to review before I could send them to clients.

Lesly Cardec:
Oh my gosh.

Michelle Sims:
Yeah. And like mind you, I taught college for seventeen years.

And it was this moment of humiliation and ego. And I was wrong. Like I needed the feedback, let’s be very clear. But how it was also handled was really humiliating. And you know, time gives you perspective, right? So I obviously my peers knew about it. Like it was tough. But it, but now I kind of joke about it because those peers are now some of my very good friends. And we and it’s it’s like it was this moment for all of us to go, dang, like you are just never too you like never feel like you’re too big for your britches. Number one. Like, you know, don’t let ego get in the way. But number two, like it isn’t like we’re all gonna do things we’re not proud of. And I’m I’ve done plenty of things I’m not proud of. You just don’t get caught a lot, right?

Leslie Vickrey:
Right.

Michelle Sims:
And getting caught in something that I needed to get caught on to like just humble me for a minute was so crucial in me becoming the leader I am today. It has completely changed the way I write emails. It has completely changed the way that I look at what outcome I want from an email. It’s changed the way I give feedback to people because I always go back to the moment of how humiliated I was. And I never want anybody to feel that way.

And it doesn’t mean, like, I won’t make a mistake again, but that like I was like I was a VP. I got written up and I’m still a CEO today. You know, like we’re gonna do stuff we’re not proud of. And I think how we own it, how we take it, how we internalize it and how we act from it and how we show up the next day is really the lesson in that.

You know? And man, man, I write emails different.

Leslie Vickrey:
And it’s, you know, I have to imagine too, it’s interesting. We talk about this a lot where we don’t realize sometimes the impact of those actions that we take on different people, really regardless of the level. But imagine, you know, getting that feedback at that stage in your career and you’ve carried it with you this whole, you know, this whole time. So it’s a great lesson. And thank you for sharing it.

And being so open to share it because it shows too for those who you lead, you you had to go through that hard lesson to then be able to lead others to not have to go through certain things. But by sharing it, you’re also kind of educating and helping them understand the better way to lead in that scenario.

Michelle Sims:
For sure. And it’s funny. I’ve told that story on Zoom to 20 year olds. And when I tell them I got written up and this and, I mean, like you can see in the camera their faces. Like like they, it, it has a it has a message and an impact that a CEO can still get written up and still be a CEO. You know? And so it’s it’s I’ve used it for good, for sure.

Lesly Cardec:
Yeah. Yeah.

Leslie Vickrey:
We’re learning and growing. We say that all the time.

Lesly Cardec:
I love that you’ve used it for good too. And I was wondering, like I’ve had other stories not exactly similar, but I’m like, do you frame it in a frame? So you just like always kinda remember that. I don’t want to say it’s a core memory because core memory is supposed to be something great, but this was probably a great thing to happen because now you approach things so differently and you’re probably a much better leader because of it. So thank you for sharing that.

My question was about hard won lessons. I don’t know if you wanna I think you beautifully shared that one. I don’t, I don’t know if you wanna go down the let’s talk about everything. But are there, you know, when you think back about other areas where something has made you a better leader, a stronger leader and you’re better because of it. Are there other things that stand out to you?

Michelle Sims
Pretty recently, I got some pretty great I think we’re having a theme of feedback here. Yes, and I think one big piece, I think is we are never too old or along in our career to stop getting feedback and to stop like really gaining perspective on how you come across and like you know, what your leadership says to other people.

I speak with a lot of conviction and a lot of determination and I’m pretty decisive. and just and decision making is absolutely one of my superpowers, but it comes across like I’m making a decision all the time when I’m not sometimes. So I recently got some feedback from somebody on my leadership team. We were in a group meeting and she called me afterward and said, “I, I really gotta tell you something.” I’m like, go for it. And she said, you know, like, I think sometimes folks are confused because they don’t necessarily know all the time if you’re brainstorming or if you’re just, you know, spitballing ideas, or if we’re making a decision, or like and…so basically how she framed it was everything seems to be a 10. So if you can help us out with like framing what it what’s a 10? And we got to stop and like, yes, everybody all hands on deck, do this. Or we’re just chatting. We’re brainstorming, we’re talking about things, no decisions are being made. And it stopped me in my tracks because to me, like we’re having a conversation.

And to others, because of the conviction in my words and my title it always sounds, it always sounds like there is this conviction and decision, or I’m asking folks to act on something when that is usually not the case. And so how my words land in this role are very different than any time in my career. And she was brave enough to say, like, we need you to give us more context. But what was great about that is she wasn’t asking me to change. She wasn’t, like, what makes me a I think a a a stronger leader is that conviction and that decisiveness. So she wasn’t saying, we don’t need you to change. We just need you to give it context. Right.

And so then we came up with this 10 and 2. So like I have now literally told my entire team about the feedback I got, and I have given them permission so that they feel comfortable saying, hey, if we’re having a conversation, I need you to say to me, hey, okay, great. And is that a 10 or a 2?

And so now we have this thing saying, you know, all right, is it a 10 or a 2 amongst us so that we’re giving each other context? They’re not freaking out that they’re not meeting an expectation. I’m not disappointed because I haven’t asked them to do something, or if I have asked them to do something and they didn’t quite understand why, you know, it, now we’re just being clear clear and we’re giving context.

And it came from one of my leaders being comfortable enough to say, like, we we gotta adjust because we’re all trying to go at at this, you know, warp speed to do things in our organization, but not everything’s a 10. Like sometimes we’re just having a conversation.

Great reflection for me, you know, but it gave our team, I was able to give I told everybody about the feedback. And everybody now, like, all right, is Michelle at a 10 or a 2? And it’s now become a become a thing for everybody. It’s great.

Lesly Cardec:
Yeah. Yeah. Kudos that she felt so comfortable. I mean, obviously you fostered that that she I don’t know that that would happen very often, that someone feels comfortable enough to s to share that

Michelle Sims:
I get it all the time.

Leslie Vickrey:
Can we get an episode just on you sharing stories because coming out of this, people will relate to what exactly I mean, Lesly, you’re probably like, we’re gonna institute the ten/two rule.

Lesly Cardec:
I didn’t say it out loud, but I was thinking..

Michelle Sims:
Do it. I’m write…I’m gonna do a post, like look, and now I’m like taking this on the road. You’re gonna see a post about it. I’m gonna I’m gonna write a LinkedIn story about it. Like, don’t get me wrong. Like we’re taking this on the road because it’s great. Like use it.

Leslie Vickrey:
It’s great feedback. I mean, as leaders, one our teams need to be comfortable giving us feedback. And I posted this on LinkedIn. We recently engaged a coach. We had an off site with our leadership team and we’ve made it really clear. You not only do you have permission, it’s encouraged. Please give me feedback. I need to hear that direct feedback. And it only makes us stronger because we’re constantly learning and growing, as you said earlier, regardless of age, role, title, all of the things.

We’re in a learning mindset all the time. So if I’m not learning, I’m not growing. And I need to constantly be growing because I want our team and our company to grow as well and our clients and the, you know, industry at large to benefit from, you know, from that. But we we need people to do that. I tend to fall into constantly having ideas, always coming in hot and, you know, passionate about something or another. And I’ve found myself since that offsite we had purposefully and intentionally doing that, but I didn’t name it. So now we’re gonna name it the ten and two. So thank you. It has it has an official name.

Lesly Cardec:
Maybe we should trademark it though, Michelle.

Leslie Vickrey:
Michelle, I’m thinking this is a bigger…let’s talk about more. We’re gonna get your publisher. Okay. So Michelle, you’re leading YUPRO Placement at a moment when really Skills First Hiring, it’s finally having its moment, really a mainstream moment where it is top of mind in conversations. At the same time, however, there are still some of the old habits where, you know, people are degree screening or resume only filters.

We talk about this a lot with companies when building a website or looking at the job board to say, do you know, let’s talk about the roles you’re hiring for. If they don’t require a resume, let’s rethink how you have this set up. You know, there’s narrow definitions of qualified. It’s still deeply embedded in how companies operate. So when you think of the future of work, and I know you talk a lot about this at many different levels to different organizations, the future of this industry, what excites you the most?

And I’d love to hear too, you know, what still worries you because again it’s maybe mainstream, but there’s still some of those old habits eking through.

Michelle Sims:
No, great question. I think what’s exciting is yes, because we’ve been doing skills first hiring before it was cool and you know, I love that it is the topic of conversation, turning skills into your currency.

It’s also scary because early career, you know, talent coming out of high school, college, non-traditional programs, we still don’t know how to translate the skills into actual work. And that’s some of the things that we spend time doing with our clients. I think folks are removing the degree from job descriptions, but our ATS defaults still give preference to degree holders. And nobody can convincee me otherwise because we see it in the numbers.

And I think the head of SHRM just posted something on, you know, one out of every 700 jobs out there, even though they are posting jobs without degrees, one out of 700 jobs basically have folks are hiring without the degree. We are still defaulting to the degree.

So now for you know theatric’s sake, we’ve removed the degree. But our practices haven’t changed.

So am I excited about the conversation? Absolutely. But it’s worrisome that we still are defaulting. I think the other piece that is scary is job descriptions when you read them for early career and entry-level talent. The requirements now, even without a degree, are closer to the skills that you learn closer to the age of 35 than 25.

And so there’s this massive knowledge gap that you see in job descriptions that can only be developed over time or in very specific development programs or like an apprenticeship program to get talent up to speed very quickly. Right? And I think another exciting piece is AI could probably help that. So I think, I don’t think AI is going to replace any of us. I think we’re in this just massive sea of evolving. And yes, we might be reducing roles now because companies don’t know how to react.

And it will, you know, we always swing, it always goes to one extreme and then the next, and we find an equilibrium. We’re just at this extreme right now. And it is going to take several years for that to balance out as we figure it out. And I think AI will certainly help a lot of that.

And then I’m also very excited about, and I’m, you know, you hear me talk about apprenticeships a lot. We are a Department of Labor registered apprenticeship intermediary. And I’m actually going to Washington again next week to talk to some folks in the Department of Labor about how the staffing industry can accelerate registered apprenticeships for this administration’s goals and not a lot of staffing firms know also how to run apprenticeship programs and we’ve figured that out.

So that’s exciting for us. now we just have to, you know, everything’s exciting. And I know you all run a marketing organization so you know, everything’s exciting and a great idea unless somebody doesn’t buy it. Right. So you know, what still worries me is employers not taking the necessary steps to take their part in training talent, but I do think that’s coming.

Leslie Vickrey:
And their their readiness culturally and just as, as a business, I have found that I sat on a board of a skills-based training program out of Chicago called IC Stars. And I remember it was immersing inner city young adults in technology training. And the one of the biggest challenges was companies would say they were interested in then when they, you know, worked with the different students and graduates, it, they weren’t ready for it internally. They thought they were, but they really weren’t.

So it’s making sure that the company is also, you know, ready to hire that way. Something you said, Michelle, really stuck out to me. We interview a lot of college graduates and the competition just coming out of college graduates where they’re doing two to three internships a summer that are so hands-on.

It’s giving them real world experience. So you talk about how now those entry-level jobs are expecting all of these skills and experiences. But if you don’t have access to that, if you don’t have access to that, we’re still not addressing the big gap in that area. And that takes an aggressive person with a lot of contacts, a lot of connections, possibly parents with deep networks helping them, because a lot of times it’s the parent introducing me to that student that every time I keep thinking, what about the student who doesn’t have access to that? Or the person who, you know, interviewing high school students here out of Summit county, not wanting to go to college.

They want to do skills, trade work and, you know, just making sure we’re making room for, you know, everyone.

Michelle Sims:
A hundred percent. Absolutely. The skilled trades are having their day in the sun again, you know, we took out of high schools. They may come back. I don’t know. It it’ll be interesting to see.

Lesly Cardec:
I think they are. I mean, everything that I’ve heard, there’s so many of my friends, sons and and even daughters that don’t want to go the traditional route. And they know it’s a very, it can be a very lucrative career for them to go in the trade.

Michelle Sims:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So that’s so I think we need to get there, but I think that piece is exciting. I think our country needs to bring back trades and our students in high school have to get exposure to a wide array of career opportunities. And without that, it’s so narrow. And you know, in the eighties, the campaign of college for all from the administration in the eighties, I think has, I think we are seeing the negative effects of that campaign today.

Lesly Cardec:
Well, I know we’re we’re wrapping up here. I wanted to ask one last question before we ask people how they can connect with you, which would really was about the next kind of, next step, the next chapter for for YUPRO placement. I guess what’s the belief or intention that you’re carrying with you in this next chapter as a leader and and also YUPRO placement?

Michelle Sims:
Oh gosh, a belief, I mean, you said it and I’m so grateful you did. Like we’ve accomplished a lot. I’ve been here now six I’ve been with YUPRO Placement now leading this organization for six years and we have done a lot in six years and and really put it at the face of Skills First Hiring and Apprenticeship Programs. And I think I want to enjoy that and experience it in this next chapter versus constantly feeling like we have to accomplish something for branding or, you know, for we just did so much with branding and you all were a really big part of that.

But always chasing the next opportunity for our talent is also really exhausting for the team.

And so really settling in on where we fit in the market. We are not going to be all things to all people. And we’re getting really tight with that and what that means. So I think I’ve been grateful for the journey to this point, but I don’t want to rush through the next one. We want to take a breath. We wanna do it really intentionally and and and grow really intentionally with the right message and the right mission. And now’s a great time to do that because of this skills first moment.

You know, it’s like everything we’ve worked towards has kind of culminated this year and and I want to enjoy that. And I want to continue that. And I don’t want to feel like we’re always chasing the next thing. And I don’t want to exhaust people. And I, you know, I want them to enjoy it.

You know, the average tenure on our team now is is, I mean, we’re, we’re 12 years in as an organization and I’ve been here six, and our average tenure is over four years. And that’s pretty remarkable. So I want to build something for folks to be really proud of and and carry it on and because I won’t be here forever myself, you know.

So I’ve been thinking about how I how I leave that in really, really good hands with a with a really something ,really leading through purpose and not having to prove everything, but just leading through that purpose because we’ve spent a lot of time the past couple of years proving what we’ve been trying to do.

Leslie Vickrey:
Michelle, you you have to be, I hope you are proud of what you’ve built and created. I remember talking to you when you first took the job and you’ve transformed not only the business and your team, but really when we say making it mainstream, you’ve played and YUPRO placement have played a huge role in making that happen. You’re all very vocal, very visible, and put yourselves out there.

And you should be really proud about that. And your answer is spectacular. Not many CEOs say that where, you know, it’s a slowdown to speed up, but it’s really that, you know, take a moment to take it all in and see what you’ve accomplished and then make sure you’re able to make that difference. So, oh my gosh, Michelle, your leadership, you know, it really isn’t separate from the mission. It is the mission. You’ve built a career and now a company around the belief that talent shows up in more places than a resume can capture.

Thank you so much for the work you’re doing and sharing your story with us here today. I could gush on and on, but I will end the conversation with how can people get a hold of you?

Michelle Sims:
Well, connect with me on LinkedIn. Michelle D Sims, visit our website, you know, shoot me an email, msims@yupro.com – happy to have a conversation. And we partner with staffing companies and training providers all of the time because our nonprofit parent company is training over 3,000 young adults a year and they all need jobs and it doesn’t cost anything to place them in a job and partner with our parent company so that we are all working toward getting all of the young adults opportunities. So that would be great.

Leslie Vickrey:
Listeners, be sure to take her up on it. Reach out, learn more information. And Michelle, thank you again.

Lesly Cardec:
Thank you so much, this was so fun. I loved having Michelle. I know we both know her well and as a friend and someone that we look up to and work with and and all the things. So what did you think?

Leslie Vickrey:
I mean, you know, I love spending time with Michelle. I’ve had the honor of interviewing her for TheEdge podcast, interviewing her on stage for ASA for a keynote and just learn from her. She always has such great in insights. I’ll call her and text her and ask her for advice often. So definitely think of her in a, in a mentor capacity too. I would say my first of the take threes is really something that she said, don’t wait until you’re fifty-five to let other people’s stuff go that wasn’t meant for you to carry.

So she felt so strongly about it, she actually has a tattoo, which she shows during the episode, “let them”. So, how we can’t carry their disappointment or their controlling natures or whatever it is that that someone is bringing to your energy and to your life that gives you this feeling that isn’t necessarily positive. Let go of it. Just let that be. We don’t need to carry that ourselves. And I loved her. The question was, what would you tell your 22 year old self? And she said, don’t wait until you’re 55 to let other people’s stuff go. Loved it.

Lesly Cardec:
That’s hard. It’s hard to do. But I love it. And I love that she was so committed to it that she had to tattoo on it. So that’s…

Leslie Vickrey:
That’s why we’re we’re listening and learning, Lesly. You can take her advice and…and remind each other. You might have a Sharpie and I’m gonna write it on.

Lesly Cardec:
I love that. She had so many good stories. The one that stood out to me was she told a story about how when she was a VP at a company, she wrote an email to a client and she was clear in the episode that sometimes her delivery can come off with a lot of conviction. She said that a few times. And so it came out in the email a little bit too strong. And so what happened after that is the client ended up emailing her boss, which was the CEO, and also sent it to, I believe they said the corporate HR department.

And just how humiliating at the time that was and all the things that happened after that. Meaning, like, I think she mentioned her boss ended up having to review her emails. I mean, how right crawl under a rock, right? Just having to read her emails before they go out, all the things.

But as humiliating that was, and I think we can all, if we all thought about moments in our career, I can point to one or two. Don’t ask me about them, but I can point to one or two. Or I also, it was like, my gosh, I can’t believe that happened. But we are better for it, for it. And so, and just grateful that it happened.

And so what she had shared was it changed the way not only she writes emails, so she’s really cautious about how it how it comes across, but also in the way that how she gives feedback, just going back to how that whole situation was handled and how what, what she took forward with her as a leader in her company.

So I just thought that was such a good example of like a really just, I mean, how else do I say it, a really crappy moment that happened, but at a time you probably think your world is over, your career is over. And now it’s like she’s a CEO of a company and she’s used it for good. So that stood out for me.

Leslie Vickrey:
Right. Yeah, I agree with you. And she, I love how she was saying, you know, it’s kind of embarrassing. Your peers know about it. Everyone apparently it sounded like kind of knew what happened in that situation. So for her, one, I think, Michelle, thank you if you listen to the take three for sharing that and being so open. You always share great stories, but to be open to share learning moments is it’s a big deal. It takes a strong leader to…

Lesly Cardec:
It’s hard to do that.

Leslie Vickrey:
…to be able to do that and to then what a gift though, because we’ve seen it with our own teams and the people we manage where they end up having, you know, unfortunate situations happen and you carry that with you forever. But sometimes, and we talk about this with our kids and how we raise them and so forth. Sometimes you have things like that happen for a reason and it makes you kind of pause and look at what you’re doing, make some changes and, you know, be a better leader and do things better and differently for the teams you manage.

So she would not do that to her team. She learned such an important lesson in that, where what a gift for her teams to have that in a leader to be able to share stories like that and make sure that she treats them in in a really positive and learning stance way too.

Lesly Cardec:
And also, like, everyone makes mistakes. She’s the VP out of a company. She makes…everyone makes mistakes. So that I think is a good lesson for everyone to hear too.

Leslie Vickrey:
She has a culture where we talk about psychological safety. She did not have that at that company. In her company, she creates that by, you know, having unfortunately learned it the hard way for herself, but it’s given her the opportunity to be able to give that gift to her team and to the culture there.

The third one is really she again speaks with a lot of conviction and passion. And this really resonated with me. She calls it the 10 and 2 and she has an article that’ll probably come up by the time we publish this. But basically an employee came to her and said that she speaks with such conviction that sometimes her team’s confused on is it a directive? Is she just sharing an opinion? So they need to know is this something you’re so hot about? We need to work on it right now. It’s a 10.

Or, you know, and she she mentioned like the steering wheel analogy. You know, if you put your hands on the 10 and two and you’re steering the car and so forth, you know, what direction do you want to go? Is this something you’re just kind of sharing with us, but you’re really passionate about it? Or is this something that you feel like we need to move on right away? And what I loved about it is, of course, we always relate these to ourselves personally, but I find myself that way as well as a leader. And I loved that she named it and that one of her team members came to her about it.

You all have mentioned it to me too. We had our off site in Chicago and it’s like we need permission to be able to say, okay, what, what are we doing with this? These are great ideas and we love that you’re a visionary, but we can’t do everything. So help us understand where this fits in the priorities and goals of what we’re doing. So I personally loved the reminder. I love that she named it. I appreciated that an employee came to her with that. And, you know, just as a fellow CEO, I could feel a hundred percent where she was coming from.

Lesly Cardec:
I agree for the same reasons. The fact that somebody felt safe enough to say that, which is so hard as well, to your boss or your CEO. And then she’s actually changing her delivery because of it. Not the thoughts and the, you know, the ideas or the directives, but when she says things, there’s all this, she’s more cognizant of the context around it. So I love that. We’re gonna steal that.

Leslie Vickrey:
And she said, you know, it’s that learning stance that regardless of what level you are, you’re constantly learning and growing. And that was a a wonderful learning moment for her. And hence us and all of our viewers. So we hope you all enjoy Michelle’s episode as much as we did and look forward to seeing you on the next.

Lesly Cardec:
Thanks, everyone. See ya.

---

Outro: Thanks for listening to Honestly, We’re Learning. If you liked what you heard, you can drop us a like, review, or comment. And if you want to hear more, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.